Beeson Podcast, Episode 363 Will Willimon October 24, 2017 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson Podcast. Well, I have the great privilege today of having a conversation with Bishop Will Willimon, who currently serves at Duke Divinity School as Professor of the Practice of Christian Ministry. We got to know him pretty well here in Alabama for a while. He was the bishop of the North Alabama Conference of the United Methodist Church from 2004 to 2012, a person who graced the pulpit of Beeson Divinity School on numerous occasions to our great blessing. I want to ask you a technical question before we get into this new book you've written and that is the fact- Will Willimon: Okay. Timothy George: ... you're a bishop. In fact, you've written a book about a bishop. Am I right in thinking that United Methodist bishops are bishops for life, not just for a term of service? Will Willimon: We are. However, I guess I question that. I like, like in, say, South African Methodism, a bishop is a bishop for a term, and then a bishop goes back to being a Methodist preacher. And I sort of, favor that sort of utilitarian, pragmatic view of the episcopacy rather than the kind of Anglican/Catholic view that a bishop forever. Timothy George: Yeah. Well you know, I've been involved recently in this International Methodist Baptist dialogue, which I've learned a lot. Will Willimon: Oh, yes. Timothy George: I love the Methodists on that dialogue. I've learned so much. One of the things I learned is that British Methodists don't have bishops. Will Willimon: They do not. This was an American invention, a Methodist episcopacy by Francis Asbury and others. The history of the Methodist episcopacy has been rather contentious. It's been an idea, a practice that has had to kind of, continually fight for itself and articulate itself throughout the history of Methodism. But one in which I enjoyed participating in for a time. And now I'm back teaching. Timothy George: Well, we want to talk today about one of your 70 books. Yes, I said 70. Like the Septuagint, 70 people. Well, you have 70 books, and marvelous books that have blessed and enriched the Church. We use them as textbooks here at Beeson and many, many other seminaries and schools do, as well. But the book I want to talk about today, I think it's your most recent book. Will Willimon: Yes. Timothy George: Tell us the title and the origin of it, because it's very much related to you and your story and your roots, isn't it? Will Willimon: It is. When I was one year old in Greenville, South Carolina, a lynching occurred. A young man, Willie Earl, was taken from a jail in Pickens, South Carolina nearby and taken to the Greenville-Pickens border and tortured to death by a gang of taxicab drivers who were seeking revenge for the death of a, the stabbing death of a taxicab driver in Greenville. And Willie Earl was in jail related to that death, although he had never been charged. He was awaiting being charged. And I grew up in Greenville, South Carolina. That occurred when I was a baby. It was about the biggest thing ever to happen in Greenville, South Carolina. Attracted international attention. And there was a trial afterwards. Sadly, like 23 men confessed to the crime, and all of them were acquitted by a Greenville jury. So, it was kind of, a double tragedy. I never heard about it. I never heard about it till I was a sophomore at Wofford College and a historian, a faculty member, mentioned, "Oh, Greenville, that's where, what'd they tell you about that lynching that happened in Greenville?" I said, "Lynching?" And that really began a kind of lifetime fascination with and coming to terms with, this lynching that occurred in my hometown and the aftermath, that was never mentioned to me. Timothy George: And you know, we think of lynching as sort of like in the era of slavery and things like this, and yet, I'm talking to a person who was alive when this happened. And of course, it doesn't happen even more recently than that in our history. Will Willimon: Absolutely. The history of lynching, and by the way, there's a wonderful project, historical commemorative project going on in Alabama, in Montgomery, right now, on the history of lynching. But lynching has a long, sad history in America. And it particularly, the lynching was part of Reconstruction and all. And it kind of, exploded in the 20s and the 30s. This was South Carolina's so-called, "last lynching". Part of the horror of this was, it occurred right at the end of World War II. And some accounts of the time noted the irony that here we had just gotten back from fighting a war against the Nazis and then, have something like this happened back here in America. The victim, Willie Earl, his two brothers both served in the armed services. Willie could not because he was an epileptic. But, yeah, lynching sadly, is a part of American history. In fact, many have noted, some have noted, that capital punishment today appears to be somehow linked to America's history of lynching in that, the states, mostly in the Southeast, Texas, that do lots of capital punishment in the 20th century and the 21st are the states that had the most lynching. And so, it's an evil that kind of, continues to be with us in different forms. Timothy George: I want you to talk a little bit about the sermon that Holly Lynn preached. Who was Holly Lynn? Will Willimon: In this little town of Pickens where the lynching occurred, just a couple of blocks from the jail was a Methodist parsonage. And in that Methodist parsonage was a recent graduate of Yale Divinity School, a man who a few months after he arrived at the church, the church burned, the historic church in Pickens. And on top of that, his wife died giving birth to their first child. And so, here was a man with an infant he was caring for in a church meeting in the agricultural room at the local high school. And when he heard about the lynching, Holly immediately moved into action. He called a public meeting, and he got prominent Baptists and prominent Presbyterians and all to come to the meeting. And the meeting was broken up when a crowd from a nearby town where a lynching had occurred some years before came in and broke up the meeting, shouting all kind of epithets. Holly left the meeting and he was advised by some people, "Okay, son, you've done what you can. You need to leave this alone. You've got other matters to see after." Well, Holly then, immediately started working on a sermon. And two weeks later he preached the sermon. And the title of the sermon was called "Who Lynched Willie Earl?" And basically, the theme of the sermon was, Who Lynched Willie Earl? Well, we all know who lynched Willie Earl. They've confessed to it. And it was these citizens from another county. But then Holly paused for effect in his sermon and he said, "We lynched Willie Earl. Every good God-fearing person that has put up with racial segregation, that has made jokes, that has said terrible things about our sisters and brothers who are Negroes, we lynched Willie Earl." And I say that it could be the most powerful sermon ever preached in South Carolina Methodism. And Holly preached it. And I think it's just sort of amazing, not only that the sermon was preached, and sad to say, I could find only in all of South Carolina, at least printed, two other sermons where the lynching was even mentioned afterwards, both by Baptists by the way. And not only did Holly preach this, but he preached it beyond great sort of, personal conditions he was in. And by the way, he preached it and he couldn't recall later receiving any negative pushback from the congregation. And in fact, when a history was written of Grace United Methodist Church in Pickens many years later it was the only sermon included in full in the church's history. So, it's a remarkable piece of homiletics for a number of reasons. Timothy George: Now, I'm a Southern Baptist. You grew up in the Methodist Church of the Southern, used to be the Southern Methodist, you're United Methodist Church now. But your roots are in South Carolina, in the South. And talk about what it's like to belong to these really major denominations, major in the sense of, there are a lot of us. We may not be much but we're many. And so, what's it like on this issue in particular, to be a Methodist from the South, a Baptist from the South? Will Willimon: I think it, we got a history. We got a past. And I think it's important to know that past as much as you can, to deal with it. In fact, I have come to believe that being a white Southerner, that's an important spiritual situation, and a grand opportunity to plumb the depths of God's mercy and grace. One of the quotes that I love I got from Gary Wills, who's not from the South, but Gary Wills historian, and I worked this for everything it was when I was bishop in Alabama, but Gary wills says, "If you're a white male Southerner," and I am all three, "over 50," yeah, “there's no way to convince you people can't change." And I love that quote, because as Wills went on to say, if you're a white male Southerner over 50, you've experienced radical transformation in your society, in your own life, in your soul, among your family and friends. And I think as an evangelical Protestant, which I consider myself to be, race is a grand opportunity to show what God can do. And I said, "I'm sorry if you don't believe in the transforming grace of God. If you don't believe in the radically life-changing power of the evangelical conversion experience, you need to look at me. Look at my life." I said, "You would not have wanted to know me, particularly on the issue of race, before God, Jesus Christ got busy." In the book, I tell a story about going to a church conference in Lake Junaluska, which is kind of, a Methodist Mecca, and rooming with an African-American guy my age, 16 years old, who was from my hometown, and a Methodist, and who worshiped in a church four blocks from my church, but could not enter my church because of his race. And I believe that that young man was my Ananias to Paul, was my, you know, I believe God used him and his courage to work a transformation in me. And so, behind every Southern Christian who has made significant turnarounds on race, I think there is a God who is busy transforming us and sanctifying us. Timothy George: Wonderful. Thanks be to God that's true. Now- Will Willimon: That ought to warm a Baptist conversionist's heart. Timothy George: I love it, absolutely. Well, I'm a Wesley-loving Baptist anyway. It doesn't take much- Will Willimon: Yes, yes. Timothy George: But, these old ghosts that you're talking about, they really are hard to die. They just linger on. This past summer at the Southern Baptist Convention, my denomination, which was born in 1845 in a crisis about slavery, had a hard time actually passing a resolution condemning what is called the alt-right. Now, we did do it after we got past a few parliamentary snafus. I'm glad we did. But we shouldn't have had to take a day and-a-half to debate that and sort of, back-forward. Will Willimon: Yeah. Timothy George: These ghosts die hard. Will Willimon: I do affirm it was debated. It was a painful conversation. But, I say in my book, "We got to have some painful conversations." And by the way, as you know, I mean, it's a claim of the Church that Jesus Christ enables us to talk about things the rest of the world can't talk about. And that is sad. And I also note in the book, when you're a Southerner you also become suspicious of certain things people say. You grow up hearing politicians say, "It's not about race, it's about strict constitutional interpretation. It's about state's rights. It's about preserving our heritage. It's about" blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, I think one gift to being a Southerner is to be able to say, "No, I bet it's about race." I've heard this before. And I remember growing up in Greenville, South Carolina, and in a Baptist church, and the church said, "It's not about not receiving Negroes into our fellowship. It's about the beautiful Baptist principles of congregational autonomy." And I remember the preacher very publicly said, "I will not have you besmirch the noble idea and history of congregational autonomy by invoking that to cover your views of race." And I think, you know, the churches need to keep pushing that. In fact, I think during that discussion, I was thinking of the churches. And I wish there were more. The churches by their composition and by their life together are becoming a haven, a place where Americans can do something that America finds very hard to do, and that is to really work at race. And I had a church in Alabama that was a new church start. They were having difficulty. And then the pastor told me one Sunday a biracial couple showed up. The next Sunday they brought some friends who were a biracial couple and their children. And he said, "We're up to about eight biracial couples now. One of them drives 60 miles to be here each Sunday." And he said, "I believe the church is missing an evangelical opportunity. Some Americans are convicted and in pain over race, and are looking for a church that can make good on its promises and be an experiment, can show what the grace of God can do." And so, I want to affirm those Baptist churches and others that are working at that. It's a sacred work. Timothy George: Now, this sermon that you write about here in this book by Holly Lynn was preached way back in the 1940s when you were a baby. And we're now talking in the year 2017. Imagine what it's going to be like in the year 2067 if the world goes on that long and Jesus tarries, as we Southern Baptists say. What's it going to be like when this topic comes back around again? Will Willimon: You know, I guess, say from recent experience and all, America's long history of telling itself, "Okay, our white supremacy and racism and all, is history. We've at last, dealt with it." Well, I hope and pray that God's grace will be allowed to work in us and that we will be quite different. On the other hand, while we're waiting to respond to God's grace, America is changing so rapidly. I thought, I said to an acquaintance of mine who is an avid Republican and an avid supporter of our President, I said to him, "Well, I want y'all to have a good time. Because I believe this could be the last election in American history where white people will be able to determine the outcome of the election." I just think no political party will be able to pull that off again. And so, our world is changing. And some of those changes are by the grace of God. And I think it'll be to the Church's grand shame if the Church misses this opportunity to point to these changes and say, "Oh, that's evidence of a living God. That's evidence that God is at work among us." When the governor of Alabama, former governor, was busy advocating all these harsh immigration laws supported by Jefferson Beauregard Sessions, I said, "Hey, we're Methodists. The Methodist Church is declining in every area except among one ethnic group, Hispanics. Spanish speaking Methodists. You cannot build a wall, because that's keeping Methodists from growth.” We need growth badly. You've got to let in, for some reason known only to the Lord, a lot of Spanish-speaking people are attracted to Methodism." I think, and as evangelicals, our responsibility is to be sure that the Kingdom of God is proclaimed without boundaries, without borders, without limitations, without putting any racial, gender, whatever limitation on Jesus's ability to save everybody. And there's an Arminian statement for you, so there you go. Timothy George: Well, I remember when you made that statement here in Alabama about immigration and it didn't please everybody, not even all your fellow Methodists, as I remember. Will Willimon: I know. I try to be so nice. I don't know why. Timothy George: But I admired your leaning into that issue in a way that wasn't entirely comfortable to everybody. But, it was- Will Willimon: Well, good, good. And I think, I'd love it if Christians, I'm not all that interested in politics myself, but I think Christians, it's great for Christians, as we enter into these discussions to say, "Now, how can we talk in ways that show forth what God has done in our lives and in the Christian faith? In fact, how can we discuss these issues in ways that the world will find just baffling, that the world won't understand and say, ‘That's fine, I can understand you don't understand this because you're not a Christian and therefore you don't read these situations the way we do.’" But I tried in my book to talk about race. I tried to learn from secular writers about race and white supremacy and all, and privilege and bias. I tried to learn from all that. But I also tried to write a very unashamedly, specifically Christian book about this issue. And I think it's a challenge about race, because I don't think race is a biblical category. I think it's an Enlightenment kind of godless way of labeling human beings and all. However, I think race, created not by Scripture but by the Enlightenment, I think race has become a sin that we got to talk about and we got to deal with. And so, I say at the Divinity school, I think our Dean has proclaimed this is our year of diversity or something. And I said, "Diversity's not really one of our words. How about saying, 'This is our year of sin and forgiveness?' And white supremacist people, do we have good news for you. God has not excluded even you." Well, okay. Timothy George: That's great. I think you knew my great, great friend, John Leith, my great friend, a little crusty around the edges, but he wrote a book one time with a wonderful subtitle called "What The Church Can Say That No One Else Can Say." Will Willimon: Oh, that's wonderful. Timothy George: It's a great title, and it's what you're talking about. Can we say something? Do we have a message? Will Willimon: And I admit in the book, I say, "This is a prejudiced Christian comment. I don't know what America is going to do about race." I haven't seen much evidence America is willing to own up to and come to terms with that. I don't know what a non-Christian does about this. I guess all you can do is to be in denial and lie and all. But, as Christians, we believe in a God who forgives. We believe in the Church as a community of truth and truth-telling, and we believe that even in a country built on racism and all, we believe even there, God can truly create a truthful, good place. And in fact, I think the Church, you know, we ought to say to ourselves every Sunday as a kind of test of, "Did Jesus Christ really rise from the dead and return to the very people who betrayed Him the first time, and then gave them everything He had and said, 'Get out of here. And don't limit yourself to national borders. I want the whole thing, I want it all.'" To kind of, restore the adventure of discipleship, the adventure of being faithful to Jesus Christ. So, I wish we could see racism, not as simply an embarrassment or a problem to be overcome, but an invitation to say, "Let's just see how deep the mercy of God goes. Let's do a test on it." Okay, so. Timothy George: My guest today on the Beeson podcast has been Bishop Will Willimon. We've been talking about his most recent book, Who Lynched Willie Earl? It's available from Abington Press on Amazon.com, or wherever you get books. I commend it to you. God bless you and thank you so much. Will Willimon: Thank you, Timothy. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at our website, BeesonDivinity.com. Beeson Divinity school is an inter-denominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson Podcast.