Beeson Podcast, Episode 433 Rob Willis February 26, 2019 Narrator: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. Today is special. Usually Dr. Robert Smith helps me introduce a special sermon once a month on the Beeson podcast. He's away today, so guess what? The person who preaches the sermon is going to help me introduce it. He's a person every single one of you, every week, should be grateful for, Rob Willis, who is our technology manager at Beeson Divinity School and keeps the Beeson podcast on every single week. But as you're gonna hear today, he is a powerful preacher as well. Rob, welcome to your own Beeson podcast. Rob Willis: Thank you, Dr. George. It's fun to be on this side of the microphone for a change. Timothy George: Now, I want to start by telling a little bit about how we met years and years ago when I was in Boston. You were involved in one of the churches I was helping to minister in those days. What brought you to Boston? Rob Willis: Yeah. I went to Boston to study at Berkeley College of Music, and was a composition major, and actually met Christ while I was there doing my last year of college. Timothy George: I remember you were a part of a Messianic community for a while that met around where our church was located. We have some mutual friends. I think of Lee Atlas and some others that loves you so much. And I don't quite remember the story. You've been at Beeson for a long, long time. Rob Willis: I have. Timothy George: Since 1996! Rob Willis: Yes, sir. Timothy George: How did that happen? Rob Willis: Well, we came to Alabama. We have been church planters in the US virgin islands and came as a result of hurricane Marilyn. We were displaced. I thought I was going to finish my [inaudible 00:02:03] at Beeson, and applied as a student, and was promptly hired. We didn't let you study. We wanted to make you work. We had just moved into this beautiful building and had a lot of equipment that needed overseeing and a beautiful, and incredible tape library that was starting that is now a large, digital archive of over 7,000 titles all recorded here at Beeson. Timothy George: And you're the manager of all that. We are so much in your debt. I don't know if you ever finished your degree, but I know you've taken every course we offer. You've recorded every course we offer. Rob Willis: Well, I'm a lot of the way there now. But between my work here and the pastor at Saint John's Community Church, those two things keep me pretty busy, but I do about a class a semester, and I'm getting done. Timothy George: I should say you're married to Vicky. You all have two adult daughters, I believe? Rob Willis: Yes. Timothy George: Who live in this area? Rob Willis: Yes. Timothy George: Tell us about your church, the Saint John's Community Church. Rob Willis: Yes. Our church was started in 1903 as a German Evangelical Church. It was an outreach to the German immigrants who were coming into Birmingham to work in the steel industry. We met where Saint Vincent's Hospital downtown is now and later bought property out on 280, out away from the heart of the city. But our desire is, and imminently were looking at, moving back downtown, reclaiming some of our heritage. We've change our name back to Saint John's. We're just a beautiful and sweet community that really has faithfully served Christ for over a hundred years in this area. Timothy George: I had the privilege of worshiping with you on at least one occasion. Rob Willis: Yes. Timothy George: I remember that well. I want to talk about this sermon. This sermon was a part of a series that we did at Beeson on the noble army of martyrs. And the text that was chosen was Daniel 3:8-18 about the three Hebrew children In the fiery furnace. Your sermon is called, "There's a furnace in your future." And I was away. I had to be out of pocket when you preached this, but I came back because you've got to hear Rob Willis' sermon. Several weeks later, I did get around to listening to it. It was as good as people said it was, talked to us about how you prepared for this sermon and what you were trying to do with it. Rob Willis: You know, I think any time I get ready to preach, I really think about the people that God has be speaking to. And I felt very strongly that I was speaking to a large room full of people, many of whom are preparing to go into ministry and need to know that there are challenges and difficulties ahead for anyone who is going to be faithful in their witness to Christ and the world. And a certain way to say 'yes' to God's call for ministry is to have a target on your back, to place yourself in a place that is very vulnerable and very dangerous. And I wanted to be very real about that. Rob Willis: Something happened during the course of the time I was preparing for this. A lot of it was written shortly after I got the assignment. But then on October 27th, there was a shooting at Squirrel Hill at the synagogue. And for me, that really brought things home once again. There is a sense in which to declare your faith. To be in line with God's word is to be defiant. There is a sense of saying, "God will deliver me. But if not ..." That cry that the three witnesses in the scripture, Dave to [Nebuchadnezzar 00:05:34] seemed very alive, and very real, and very pertinent all of the sudden. Timothy George: You bring that into the sermon in a very skillful but heartfelt way. And I can tell just by listening to this ... You're gonna hear it today, how moving this was to the people who we're hearing it in Hodges Chapel. Rob Willis: Yes, sir. Timothy George: Thank you, Rob, for doing this. We're gonna go to Hodges Chapel now and listen to the sermon that was preached on November the 13th, 2018 as a part of our series, The Noble Army of Martyrs. Entitled, there's a furnace in your future. Reader: Daniel 3:8-18, "Therefore at that time, certain Chaldeans came forward and maliciously accused the Jews that declared to King Nebuchadnezzar, 'Oh, king, live forever. You, oh king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, bagpipe, and every kind of music, shall fall down and worship in golden image. And whoever does not fall down and worship shall cast into a burning fiery furnace. Reader: There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the affairs of the Province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. These man, oh king, pay no attention to you. They do not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.' Then, Nebuchadnezzar in furious rage commanded that Meshach and Abednego be brought. So they brought these men before the king. Reader: Nebuchadnezzar answered and said to them, 'Is it true, oh Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? Now, if you are ready, we hear the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, bagpipe, and every kind of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made we'll land good. But if you do not worship, you shall immediately be cast into a burning, fiery furnace. And who is a god who will deliver you out of my hands?' Reader: Abednego answered and said to the king, 'Oh Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning, fiery furnace. He will deliver us out of your hand, oh king. But if not, be it known to you, oh king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.' The Word of the Lord." Rob Willis: I want to ask you to call this morning's text back to your mind as we pray together. Father, God, thank you for your goodness, and your grace, and your love towards us by which you've bought us by the blood of your son and made us your own, that we might be able to be called your children. Draw us near to you and draw near to us as we seek to hear, and understand, and apply your word this morning, that we might be changed, that we might walk in your ways to the glory of your name. We ask that you will pour out your spirit of your people this morning as we seek you together in Jesus name, Amen. Rob Willis: I'm grateful for this opportunity to share with you this morning. As I receive this assignment and as I prayed about it, I found myself trembling for you. Because I believe that if God has called you to ministry, that if God has his hand upon you, that there's a furnace in your future. When I think of this text, I couldn't help but think about my great-grandfather, Aaron and his wife, [Frida Merloth 00:10:08], who came from Poland in the early 1900s and how they settled here in the United States. And they looked back 30 years later. Rob Willis: The places that they had known are gone. And the villages they knew were gone. It was in 1933 that [inaudible 00:10:29] opened. And by 1945, there were over 1200 concentration camps sending millions to fiery furnaces. And the same world that would refuse to believe that these three could have survived a fiery furnace now refuse to believe that millions were dying in the furnaces. On some days, they say that arm-in-arm, that people with walked to the showers, to the gas chambers singing, "[foreign 00:11:02]." Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers and sisters to dwell together in unity. Rob Willis: Last month in Squirrel Hill, Pennsylvania, for the clothes of [foreign 00:11:24] service outside of Presbyterian Church because they couldn't return to Synagogue, we heard that sound again, "[foreign 00:11:31]." The way of saying, "But if not ... God will deliver us. But if not ..." I want to know where is the 'God' in "But if not ...?" Is he less near? Is he less strong? Is the addition to "But if not ..." simply irony? Is the addition of "But if not ..." a wisp of doubt? We need to know, because today's text talks about a furnace of history, but it brings us before the furnace of destiny. "And I believe there is a furnace in your future." Here's what I want to tell you this morning. This is my outline, so if you want to space out after this, you can, but here it is. Rob Willis: God forms his people on a foundation by a conviction as a revelation for the fire. That's what I have to tell you this morning. God forms his faithful witness on a foundation. These three, we call them Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, but they were Jewish young men with Hebrew names. Their names meant the lord is gracious. And who is like God? And the lord has helped. They were named by parents who had known, remembered, and seen God's faithful acts. They have learned of the faithfulness of God in the context of their families. Their first teachers were their mothers, and their aunts, and their sisters. The Torah contains exceptions that preserve the incredibly crucial role of caregivers and mothers to teach, and to train their children in the faith. And every teacher in Israel learned their faith from a community of faithful women. That's why Judaism has passed through the mother. Rob Willis: They also learn it from their fathers and their brothers. They woke up in the morning, and they heard the sound of the rustling in the prayer shall, pulling together the [inaudible 00:13:41] as though pulling together the four corners of the word over which God is God and saying, "[foreign 00:13:49]." And as they lay in their bed listening to their fathers and brother praying, they long to love the lord with that same love. As idolatry gave way the captivity, and these boys were far from home with changed names and strange foods, their faith had been already built on a foundation, a foundation they would need because there would be a furnace in their future. And they were chosen for this trial, hand-selected as the brightest and the best of the conquered to serve in the courts of the king. Rob Willis: And somehow, God's favor was visible even to the pagan eye. And God's favor that makes us valuable also makes us vulnerable in this world. If you are in harmony with the word, you're gonna be at discord with the world, and there will be a furnace in your future. They were not only forged on a foundation, but their faith was forged by a conviction. You see, these three had a friend named Daniel or God is my judge. And he recalled God's command, "You shall not eat of anything that does not part the hoof or chew the cud." And though he was hungry and far from home, he determined not to eat the king's rich food. Rob Willis: Are we ready? are we ready to keep God's word at our disadvantage? This is why not only our minds, but our hearts need to be formed for ministry. Our faithfulness to God's word is the thermometer of our hearts. You see, it's possible to know the word of the lord without loving the lord of the word. We need a blazing love. The safest and the surest way to enter the furnace is to be on fire before you go in. If you love him, at the time when it comes to forsake yourself, you'll be ready, if you love him. Rob Willis: And Daniel said to the overseer, "I willing to bet your life that God will honor our faithfulness." And the overseer didn't like this bet so much, but Daniel's contagious conviction caused others to step up. As Daniel said, "In our appearance be compared after ten days with those who ate the king's rich food and decide according to what you see." You see, faith has to be lived. A foundation becomes a conviction in the forge of practice. We're called to move from observation to participation. Expecting great things from God will not do anything until you attempt great things with God. Have you ever obeyed God to the point of needing his deliverance? A lot of people have never seen a miracle because they never needed one. If you don't know where to start, here's what to do. Find a Daniel. Look around among your classmates, find a Daniel, and hang out with him. Hang out with her. Hand out with people who believe that God's word is real and that heaven is real, and live like it, and spend time with them. Rob Willis: I remember when I first became a Christian, I returned to Boston. I had been on the road. I was in the subway with my guitar case with a big 'Jesus is Lord' sticker on it. I felt this slap on my back. This guy came running up. He's like, "You're a Christian!" I said, "Yeah." He's like, "You're coming home with me tonight." And that's how I met Brian [Mathus 00:17:50]. Brian Malthus only had one arm because one night he was out partying with his friends, and he was climbing a power pole, and he grabbed the transformer, and lost his arm. He woke up in a hospital bed not knowing what had happened. And some days later, praying with a hospital Chaplin, he became a Christian. Brian took me ... We were on the subway station already. He said, "I'm getting on this train. Come on." Rob Willis: Three days later, I had been over to his house meeting all his friends, and praying with people, and studying God's word, and worshiping together. And he introduced me to so many people who had met Jesus and were in love with Jesus. All because he was sold out. I thank God for the Daniels in my life early on that helped me to realize what richness there is in surrendering everything to Christ. From Daniel, they learned that if you will obey God's word, that you can count on his provision. They also learned that this looked like total dependence. This isn't the brashness. This isn't the boldness. This is a life of leaning on God. As Daniel said to the emperor, he said, "I'll be able to provide and interpretation for your dream. He then went back to his friends and said, "Pray with me. Pray for me." Rob Willis: They learned that this is a life of leaning on God. It's a life that says that God can deliver me, but if not ... Now the king had set up his idle and had called upon them to fall and worship. And these three remembered those words, "You shall have no other Gods before me." And with no Daniel to take the lead, they had to trust God for themselves. God will build your faith on a foundation and forge a conviction for the moment of temptation when secondhand faith is insufficient and when rumors of God won't sustain you. Rob Willis: You see, they were attempted with a temptation of political compromise. They were faced with a question. Would they bow down to the image of the earthly nation to the shame of their highest allegiance? And God asks us, "Will you have a national God before me? Will you abandon God's standards for allegiance to country, or party, or conviction? Will you conflate your national birthright with your heavenly one? Or do you actually believe our citizenship is of heaven from which we eagerly await a savior?" My great fear for this time is that in clamoring for our rights, we will forgo the rewards known only to those who will face the furnace, that these three would not bow down. Rob Willis: The furnace is the place where heavenly obedience is rewarded with earthly consequences. Following Jesus will place you at odds with the community, with the culture, and sometimes the congregation. When the culture says, "Don't preach like that!" And the church says, "Don't forgive like that! Don't love like that!" And your family says, "Don't live like that!" They'll often follow it with, "But if you do, who's there who can deliver you?" The furnace, it makes us pause when we hear, "Come over here and help us!" The furnace causes us to second guess God's voice when we're called to choose between a well paying job and shepherding that little flock out in the country or down in the city. The threat of the furnace tempts us to ignore injustice, avoid controversy, and to listen to the committee. To avoid the furnace may mean pleasing your earthly king to the sorrow of your heavenly one. We've got to decide who we love now and who we serve now, because there will be a furnace in our future. Rob Willis: This all occurs as a revelation. I think often we mistakenly insist that suffering is about learning. We tell people, "Oh, you're going through a difficult time." Well, God's trying to teach you something. "Thanks! I'd rather just go to class, please." No. Testing is not about teaching. Testing shows what you already have learned. Testing is the moment that shows who you actually are. Suffering displays what you've learned. The furnace does not teach you, it reveals you. You see, you might remember how you came out, but the world's never gonna forget the way that you went in. They're never gonna forget the moment that you said, "God can deliver me. But if not ..." Rob Willis: The furnace is also the place of revealing God. For those who have eyes to see, they'll see who's in there with you. Nebuchadnezzar says, "Wait! We're in three cast in. Why is it that I see four?" And I love this. He says, "I see four, and they're loosed. They're unbound. They were bound when they were standing outside. But now that they're in there, they're free! They're free in the furnace and obedience to God than they were standing outside the furnace knowing out the weight! The fourth is like the son of God!" This is a reality. All humans suffering apart from Jesus is wasted. "There's no suffering with Jesus" is wasted. The only sense that will be made of suffering is the presence of the nail-pierced king. Rob Willis: We can know the fellowship of his sufferings because he has known the fellowship of ours. He has entered that fellowship. And that same Christ who will one day dry all of your tears for he's cried them himself. And as he does, the world looks on and says, "Didn't we go into that furnace? How is it that we see a fourth?" And he's like, "The son of God. And they'll see him, but you'll know him. You will know him. As you walk through the furnace of suffering, you will know the one who is in the furnace with you because you have been in the furnace with him. And the answer to the question, "Where's God? Where is God at Squirrel Hill? Where is God at Dachau? Where is God in Babylon? Where is God when we suffer?" The question is answered this way, "Closer ..." God is closer to those who will say, "But if not ..." Rob Willis: You know, I don't want you to think this is just a Jewish thing. This is also a Jesus thing. I don't want you to think that this is just a guy thing. This is also a sister thing as well. We've seen three brothers who loved God to the cost of their very lives. But time would tell if I began to tell you of the sisters who underwent this. Let me give you three of them from Agnes Smith Lewis' translation of the holy women of Syria. She writes [inaudible 00:26:20] daughter, who is going to throw herself into a furnace along with the Christians, but then she realized she hadn't been baptized yet. She went, and she was baptized, and waited, and fasted, and prayed for seven days, and then went and joined the Christians into the furnace. Rob Willis: Or [Euphemia 00:26:36], who was commanded to worship at the alter of Aries at the threat of being burned. But she said to the king, "This fire that you threaten me with is one that fills up a moment, but then it's immediately quenched. I'm not weak enough to feel your threats." Or how about Sophia who refused to bow down at the alter of Artemis. And when they tore her sides with metal combs, she said, "I don't feel your tortures." And then when they couldn't kill her, they threw her into the furnace. They went to reach for her, but it says that she entered the flames joyfully. Rob Willis: And then they went and threw her daughter, [Agope 00:27:13], in after her. The flames couldn't kill her, so they had to take her out and kill her by the sword. "God can deliver me. But if not ..." You see, it's shown through suffering, "Costly obedience to Christ is not an event. It's a trajectory. It's built on a foundation, forged by a conviction as a revelation through suffering to be spiritually formed as a servant of the crucified one is to be made out of swords and at odds with the world full stop." That's what it is, martyred them. It's not the incredible or the remarkable Christian life, it's the baseline for it. Rob Willis: Jesus says to us, "If anyone would follow me, let him deny himself daily and take up his cross and follow me." You see, what's remarkable is not that we go into the furnace. What's remarkable is not that we come out of the furnace. What is remarkable is that we can be fully bought and fully paid for and still demand that we be comfortable and safe. There are no 'Amens' there. You see, we can say, "But if not ..." Because, someone else did. Jesus was in the garden and he prayed, but it didn't seem like the confidence of these three fellows before Nebuchadnezzar. Rob Willis: The writer of The Hebrew says that during his life, he offered up prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the one able to save him from death. And he was heard because of his piety. "Oh, that's wonderful. God heard him, so he was off the hook, right?" He was heard. And he said, "Father, if there be any other way, let this cup pass for me, and just go with me here. But if not, I will be done." Sometimes God shows us his kindness as he brings us out of suffering. Sometimes he shows us his kindness as we suffer so that kindness might be extended to others. Rob Willis: I can't tell you whether God will, in your life, in your ministry as you move forward, he'll display your kindness to the world by bringing you into the flames or out of the flames. But I can tell you one thing for certain, that God has displayed his kindness towards you by sending his son to go into and through the flames for you. I think of King David who, at the end of his life, was working for ... He wanted to build and alter to the lord. And he looked for a piece of property to purchase to do it. And the owner of the property said, "I'll give it to you for free." But he said, "I wouldn't offer to the lord that which costs me nothing." "But that's our boast. I was saved. And it costs me nothing." Rob Willis: I'm sorry. That was expensive. That was costly. Grace, for you, has never been free. It's just you weren't the one to pay for it. That's what makes grace amazing. That's what makes it real. But that's what also makes us say "Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe." How does it we forget the second half of it? When we stand in the furnace, and we say, "I never felt the flames, but there was one who did." And we say, "I didn't even break a sweat, but there was one who sweat blood." And we say, "Oh, I never felt the nails, or the mocking, or the beating, but there was one who did in our place." I ask us, "we've been saved by this costly suffering of one who prayed, but if not ..." And it's by "But if not" that ours is possible. If it has made it possible, has it made it possible for you? Has it made it possible for me? The question is then, "Why are we living for ourselves?" Narrator: You've been listening to the Beeson podcast with host, Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson podcast at our website, BeesonDivinity.com ... Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational, Evangelical community school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope you will listen to each upcoming addition of the Beeson podcast.