Beeson podcast, episode 449 Bishop Robert Baker June 18, 2019 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now, your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. My guest today on the podcast is a special friend, Bishop Robert Baker, who serves as the bishop of the diocese of Birmingham in Alabama. He was appointed to this post by Pope Benedict XVI back in 2007 and has served in a wonderful way as a Christian leader in our community. Before coming to Birmingham, he was the bishop of Charleston, South Carolina, and we've been able to do a number of things together, Beeson Divinity School and the diocese of Birmingham in Alabama, through our personal relationship with the bishop. Thank you, bishop, for being with us today. Bishop Baker: Thank you, Dr. George. I just want to commend and thank you for your leadership in the relationship with the Catholic community. I know you have served in a broader area with the Catholic-Baptist dialogue. Bishop Serratelli, a dear friend of mine, who I studied with in Rome 40 years ago, serves in that capacity and has high regard for you as I do. I thank you as well for these years, I've been here 12 as Bishop, almost 12 years, of Birmingham, and you much longer, but you have led the way in dialogue and conversation, Catholic-Baptist, and those areas where we could, we did move ahead on to trying to help members of our religious communities understand better one another. So I thank you for that leadership. Timothy George: Thank you, Bishop. I want to talk about some of the our joint ventures as we think about, both of us coming to a close in the present office that we have at about the same time, so it's a little bit bittersweet that we won't be able to collaborate in exactly the same way but I think some good fruit will come from what we've done. So what's your own background and how did you come to the priesthood and then maybe to be a Bishop? Bishop Baker: Dr. George, I'm a northern boy, I was born in Ohio, 1944, June the fourth. My father's family was pretty much all Irish, my mother is German, and so I carry a little bit both cultures. I went off as a youngster, early, into a seminary. I had an uncle a priest and a great uncle, they were members of a religious order that was trying to get me in their community and I opted toward the diocese and the clergy, and I have to say it was kind of a self-centered reason. My mother said if you join a religious community you cannot own a car, it was that kind of selfish, materialistic spirit that led me into the diocese and priesthood, and then I found out I always drove clunkers and they drove better cars than I did. Bishop Baker: Anyway, the interest came from going through Catholic school, having actually a good model, role model, of a priest, in the midst of all this clergy sexual abuse crisis, I was fortunate to have role models that exemplified the highest levels of clerical life. And my uncles, my uncle and great uncle, and then this other priest, and they were influential in having me think about the priesthood. Now, we know decisions finally are not made till later in life, ultimately, and this was when I was 26 that I was ordained, but in those days, and I'm talking pre-Vatican II days, you needed languages to survive in the Catholic ministry. So Latin was primary. So it was six hours a week for six years of Latin required, and you had to be able to celebrate mass and know what you were saying, so I started early in high school when I could prep seminary. And it was at the Joseph [Fenim 00:04:33] seminary, Columbus, Ohio, which was founded by a German who helped send German speaking priests to German immigrants, so the other language we started was German, so I studied German four years, five hours a week. So the language thing was big and that was started early. Prior to my time in high school also, the language of Greek was brought in. They found this a little bit too much for high school students to have three languages so they pushed that back a few years. Bishop Baker: But anyway, that was my introduction to seminary life and eventually I was ordained in 1970 as a priest. That was 12 years in the seminary, 10 of which were in the '60s, so like yourself, much of my experience was tempering the understanding of faith in the midst of the sexual revolution, the Woodstock era ... I guess Woodstock is celebrating its, what is it, 50th anniversary coming up. So that impacted the Catholic church, the whole society, and we all had to deal with trying to reorient ourselves somewhat in the right direction in the midst of that. Bishop Baker: So I had wonderful assignments as a priest early on, Parish ministry in Jacksonville Beach, Florida, teaching at a Catholic high school and then went off for graduate studies after that in Rome. Timothy George: Now, you mentioned the '60s, I was also a college student in the '60s, I graduated from high school in '68, so in the late '60s early '70s I was in school, now something else was happening in the world of Catholicism in the '60s and that was The Second Vatican Council, could you say a little bit about that and how it may have influenced you? Bishop Baker: So all through my seminary days in college, I graduated from high school in '62 so I was in college in the years '62 to 5, or the years of The Second Vatican Council, so we would get the council documents and we would be informed of them and told the consequences of them. So early on the religious freedom document, the liturgy document, and that, of course, liturgy document affected what was going to happen to me when I was ordained a priest. By that time everything was in English, my first mass was the totally new English liturgy which has succeeded on to the present time, so I never had the Latin ... I had opportunities I celebrated for the ... We have Tridentine masses in our dioceses, but I do the confirmations in three different areas, two mainly in the Latin way, but all my priesthood has been affected by that. Bishop Baker: So the other thrust is the Ecumenical relations, which has brought us together dialoguing those areas where we can and where we should ... My little document that we're working on right now in preparation for Eucharistic Congress [inaudible 00:07:40] talks about the thrust that that has made in Ecumenical and inter-faith relations, which you have been very much involved in, [inaudible 00:07:49] The Second Vatican Council. Timothy George: Yes. You knot the great document on religious freedom, dignitatis humanae, which came out of Vatican II, that's one of the places I think where Catholic and Baptists can come together because religious liberty, religious freedom, is maybe the primary distinctive of the Baptist tradition, at least for which we're best know. And it seems that with Vatican II there is a coming together, if not identical, at least congruent visions of religious freedom. Bishop Baker: Yes, and I think right now in the United States religious freedom is a major issue and worldwide in terms of dealing with other countries where religious freedom is not in place. And as a Catholic community we do admit our failures and sins of the past in not living a respecting that dimension of faith, which was highlight at The Second Vatican Council. Timothy George: Now, I want to talk about this pastoral letter you've been so involved in, and it's very important in the context of the present moment, but before we do that I have another question, a lot of Baptists, a lot of Evangelical, Protestants, have a view of Catholicism that it's un-biblical and even some think that Catholics are not even allowed to read the Bible, the Bible is kept from Catholics, whatever might have been the case in the past that's certainly not true today, could you say a little bit about the Bible and how important it is for Catholic theology and for Catholic practice? Bishop Baker: Well, following The Second Vatican Council, many priests were sent to do Biblical studies in Roman Jerusalem, Bishop Serratelli was one of them, so I think he has been a good dialogue partner with you because he has a very good knowledge of both the Old and the New Testament. So that has been a fruit of the research and study of the ... Raymond Brown, I think, is respected by Theologians and Scripture scholars of all backgrounds and denominations taught at Yale, so I think we're in the area now where we can dialogue in a professional way with one another, and the fruits of that have been many. Bishop Baker: I do want to say that even as a young student in the seminary, we were taught to meditate on the Scriptures, and some of the things I was taught by my spiritual director, a Jesuit priest, I still use, how to work into reading the Scriptures in a contemplative way so that's it's not seen just as a book with historical facts but with facts that apply to me today, how do we do that, and how do we balance the history and the historical elements, the historical critical method, with also the personal application in faith. I have to say I learned some of that early on, that has helped me read the Scriptures as the way they were meant to be read. Timothy George: Yeah. You know I'm a part of a group called Evangelicals and Catholics Together, it's a Ecumenical dialogue that's been going on for now over 20 years, and that's been kind of our strategy to read the Scriptures together. Whatever topic we're exploring we've published a number of different papers on Theological topics, on issues of public life, but our method is to come to around the Scriptures, what does the Bible say about this, how do we understand it how do we read it, and how is our own understanding enlightened and even transformed by a mutual co-adherence in the word of God? I think that's a wonderful way to go forward. Bishop Baker: And just briefly, this past Holy week, as I read the Scriptures of Holy week and we go through on Palm Sunday and Good Friday in a special way, the narrative of the passion, to me the figure that stood out strongly was Judas Iscariot and the tragedy of that man's life, a man that was around Jesus. There's different approaches to Judas by synoptics and John, John is pretty hard on Judas for whatever reason, and he was there when, of course, Judas betrayed him in the garden, but he's the only one that refers to him as the traitor, the traitor, and I think that they all suggest that every possibility was held out to Judas for conversion by Jesus. It had to be the greatest tragedy of Holy week. But as I read the Scriptures this year, Judas popped out at me more so I had been reflecting on how that can happen to even people who are around Jesus and they don't really become his disciples, they go to mass every Sunday, they hear the message, but they don't take it to heart. And there's so many of us, perhaps, that fall in that category, we could also suffer the loss of that gift that Jesus has given us of faith. Timothy George: That's a good way to introduce this document that you've been so involved in bringing together called Formed, Sent: Missionary Discipleship and its Consequences for Ministry, tell me a little bit about this document what's it's intended to do. Bishop Baker: Dr. George, we celebrate 50 years as a dioceses of Birmingham this coming June, the end of June, 20th and 29th at the BJJC, the Baptist community will be free to attend any of the sessions with good speakers that will be there, the [inaudible 00:13:28] of the United States will be present and speaking in English and Spanish and giving the homily at the end of the Saturday mass, Saturday vigil mass. The document is a preparatory document to that and it's helping us, as a Catholic community of northern Alabama, reflect on missionary discipleship and the document is a fruit of Pope Francis' Evangelii Gaudium pastoral exhortation, apostolic exhortation, the joy of the gospel, and he gets at basically the importance of everyone by baptism, he says being a missionary disciple ... He defines disciple as one who has a deep personal encounter with Jesus that enables him to experience, him or her, to experience the love and forgiveness of Jesus, and that's where I think Judas Iscariot unfortunately missed the point. The encounter he had was not deep or personal and not a sense of forgiveness. The Lord would have held forgiveness to him too for that betrayal, but he could sense God could love us that much. So that discipleship ... And then also missionary, we're called to be missionaries, and here's where we Catholics I think as a community need to do a lot of homework. Bishop Baker: The Pope says, "First of all, to be a good missionary you have to be a good disciple, and then the disciple is one who experiences another person as neighbor," and I think we can think of the good Samaritan parable as the definition of what neighbor is. It doesn't even have to be somebody who's in your own big community. Jesus is saying that neighbor is somebody who actually loves and cares for you, and that is something that transcends religious denominations. Timothy George: One of the things that we share in common, Bishop, is an interest in Saint Francis of Assisi, I wonder if you would make comment about Francis and ... I guess as a student I began to read Francis and was drawn to him as a figure, and over the years have had a number of opportunities to visit Assisi, his hometown, and actually to say with a group of sisters, the Brigittine Sisters that you also have stayed with and are held in high esteem by the them. The last time I was there they said, "You're from Birmingham, Alabama, do you know Bishop Robert Baker?" "Yes, he's a friend of mine," so I got royal treatment because I was acquainted with you. Talk about Francis and the Franciscan careism in the church. Bishop Baker: I hope the Sisters gave you some of their great pasta. Timothy George: It was wonderful. Bishop Baker: You could eat it all day. They're great cooks. When I was a student in Rome in '72 to 5 and then back for a [inaudible 00:16:20] in '77, I would go there often. I probably stayed with those Sisters 35 times, and the lure of Assisi, the message of Assisi, of Saint Francis who is, I think, everybody's saint, whatever Christian background a person is, and even non-Christians find him a model of Christianity, so I'm drawn to him as you are as somebody who represents the higher standards of Christianity. I'm wearing the cross of San Damiano, which is the [inaudible 00:16:57] cross, I have that I use most often and I happened to buy it in Assisi so I too have a special devotion to him and hopefully, Dr. George, some time in our retirement we might rendezvous there for some good Italian pasta there with the Brigittine- Timothy George: Wouldn't that be wonderful? One of my favorite places to go in Assisi, and not only with the wonderful Sisters, but also the Mount Subasio, which was a place they call a Carceri where Francis and the early Franciscans would meet to pray and sometimes struggle with demonic forces. It was a very rigorous, rigorous ... That it was a time of clarification and drawing closer to Christ. Beautiful mountainside overlooking the Valley of Spoleto below. Bishop Baker: I went up there once, I have to tell you, it's a little humorous story, we had a cab driver and a rather overweight friend was with me and, of course you know if you go into the Carceri you got to be very slim to be able to crawl under and through where Francis lived. It's all in stone, it's carved out. And so this rather heavy-set gentlemen is getting out of the cab and the cab driver spoke Italian, I understood it but the other man didn't, but he just did a little gesture like no way are you going to make it through the Carceri, so he kind of hung back while we went on through. But yeah, it's a little tight squeeze and you can imagine what Francis must've had to endure, but Francis used as a pillow a stone when he was there and obviously it was a lot of asceticism that went on there. Timothy George: Sure. Well, let's talk just a little bit about some of the projects we've done together. I think maybe the first one is when we co-hosted a visit from our friend the great Chuck Colson, the late Chuck Colson came the Birmingham, and the dioceses, and Beeson Divinity School were involved in sponsoring that, he spoke to a large group ... We've had Scott Hahn, another Catholic Biblical scholar, come together. And then more recently a major conference, Black and White in America, How Deep the Divide, which really was your initiative and we came alongside you and helped to sponsor that, along with others. Racial reconciliation, it seems to me ... If you live in Birmingham, if you're in Alabama, if you're a Christian, it's something you can't just ignore. We have a stewardship of geography, and that conference was a very important coming together of white and black Catholic and Evangelical protestants to think together about that very difficult and continually pressing issue for all of us. Why is that such an important thing for you? Bishop Baker: Well, first of all I want to commend Beeson Divinity School on hosting it. When we can see the idea of it, originally we thought ... An academic said it would be the ideal and religious academic setting better so that the religious community of Birmingham could be a vital part of it. The mayor at the time also wanted to be part of that so he helped us as well get the political representatives there, and you knew them well, and it made sure that that sector was represented. Bishop Baker: Birmingham is ground zero for the Civil Rights Movement, historically many things happened here with Martin Luther King and others that got attention from the world, and still do, so I think it is important that we as religious leaders had this reflection that did go out and indicated progress in the discussion. Progress in the sense that we were listening to one another, and listening to the black community, and we are still carrying on listening sessions in the aftermath of that because we did determine that the divide is deep and the emotional feelings are raw yet. You yourself said, Dr. George, that one of our community members indicated this could not have been done 40 years earlier, that session, because we did allow things to surface and we were a little concerned about the possibility of some problems that could develop from the dialogue that happened. Fortunately, everything was well contained and well organized by your people here, so I commend you. I think the listening needs to go on on both sides into the future. You and I will be stepping down from leadership positions, but our listeners, people from all faith backgrounds, need to carry that listening possibility open and then allow one another to speak to the issues. Bishop Baker: I think we also need to be committed in our churches to education in the poor areas and poor communities around Birmingham areas and large cities. I think education is a gift from the churches and whether our religious schools existing that can give scholarships and help is very important. So education was one other area that we saw a need for. But I thank you for that, for hosting it here. It was a very important event. Bishop Baker: I also want to just commend the Baptist community for leadership in your churches around Alabama and the world. Here in Alabama the Baptists are the forefront of concern for life and, Chuck Colson brought in those concerns, you and I have shared that concern for the unborn ... The Baptist community is the strongest faith community in leading the charge for the cause of life in Alabama, and I commend the ministers who have helped lead to the point where Alabama is trying now in its legislature to block abortions in the state. Obviously these things will go to the Supreme Court, but Alabamians should be proud and the Baptist community, and to a certain extent the Catholic community, and others who have helped form the minds and the hearts of people on this issue. I commend you. Timothy George: Thank you, Bishop. We've talked just now about these two major issues in our society, the question of racism and also the question of the sanctity of life, abortion, the evil of abortion that goes on in almost unrestricted forms, these are deep matters and even though they may have different politics in some people's mind, it seems to me that morally they're very close to being the same issue and that if we are concerned about one we should also be concerned about the other. Bishop Baker: Exactly. The life issues are a continuum and they go across the board. I think these issues are right now, to the pivotal bullet, and most important ones, [inaudible 00:24:04] this little hot-button issue, and that's capital punishment. I have myself served as a priest, as a chaplain to Catholics on death row when I was a priest in Florida. Pope John Paul II had said while in the past the Catholic church did not take a strong position of opposition to capital punishment because it invoked it itself in the past, now he said we should move away from that, and he puts it in a continuum of the life issues, respect for human life. So I just throw that out for conversation. I know it's a hot-button issue here in Alabama, and politically it's one that's not gone too far, but we as Catholics still talk about that to ... And I have witnessed myself two executions, I had been with the inmates, and I've seen them face it, and the complication of the death penalty is that you know the time and the moment of your death, that God frees the rest of us from that particular pressure. Timothy George: Thank you for your conviction about that and your conscious speaking out on it. It's also a matter related to life and the gift of life that God gives to us. Bishop, we're almost a the end of our time I wonder what you would be willing to say a prayer for us, for the dioceses, for Beeson Divinity School, for the future that God has for us? Bishop Baker: And how about a prayer of Dr. Timothy George who has influenced the lives of thousands of people, many thousands, through the ministers he's formed and those he's educated? So I'll start right there. Timothy George: Thank you. Bishop Baker: God, oh loving father, we thank you for the gift of Dr. Timothy George who is the founder and Dean of Beeson Divinity School, has left his mark, a great legacy here in Birmingham but throughout the country and the world. May you bless him as he moves into a new area of ministry and service, carrying on his research, and his great faith in action by the teaching of ministry and profession. May you bless him. May you bless all in the Beeson Divinity School who work so closely with the Catholic household of faith here in Birmingham and my own brother clergy who have benefited from programs that have been sponsored here. May you bless Samford University, its president and all its faculty members, its great football team that has to have a couple Catholics playing on the team, and that did pretty well the last few years. And we acknowledge the great strides that have happened, Lord, because of the dialogue that's gone on chiefly led by Dr. Timothy George. May you bless him, as their family, his wife who's here today, and all who are part of the wider family of this great divinity school. We make our prayer gratefully and joyfully in Jesus name. Timothy George: Amen. Thank you so much. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson podcast with host, Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson podcast at our website, BeesonDivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational, Evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson podcast.