Beeson Podcast, Episode #554 Caroline McKinstry June 22, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Kristen Padilla: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m Kristen Padilla, co-host of the Beeson Podcast. This week on the podcast we continue our greatest hit summer series, featuring past podcast episodes by playing a conversation this week with Caroline McKinstry who was on the show in 2013. Caroline is a Beeson alumna and I was privileged to be in school with her many years ago. In this episode she shares about her book, “While The World Watched: A Birmingham Bombing Survivor Comes of Age During the Civil Rights.” At the age of 14 Caroline had just exited the bathroom at 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham in 1963 when a bomb went off, killing her four friends in the bathroom. Her book details an eye witness account of growing up in the Jim Crowe era and what it was like following the bombing at 16th Street Baptist. Let’s listen now to our friend, Caroline McKinstry. >>Timothy George: Welcome to today’s Beeson Podcast. My guest on today’s podcast is the Reverend Doctor Caroline Wall McKinstry. Welcome, Caroline, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Caroline McKinstry: Thank you, Dr. George. It’s my pleasure to join you today. >>Timothy George: I’ll never forget the first time I met you, because you are a graduate of Beeson Divinity School, and you were assigned to my spiritual formation class in your very first semester. And you walked in, maybe a little bit apprehensive, and then you began to tell your story and open your heart. And that was the beginning of a friendship between the two of us and really Beeson and you and Samford and you that continues to this day. So, we are especially honored to have you here this week to talk about one of the great historic events, a tragic event in many ways, but also an event of tragedy out of which there may be hope because of our faith in God, because of our commitment to Jesus Christ our Lord. So, Caroline, tell us a little bit about your own background, your family, and particularly your father. You, growing up in Birmingham, had a lot of rules as a teenager that you had to obey. Why did he make so many rules for you? >>Caroline McKinstry: My father had served in the military and was very much a disciplinarian. There were also six children in our family and I think he recognized very early on that for there to be order and organization in our house there had to be rules. There were no ifs, ands, or buts about the rules. Everyone was required to follow those rules. I also think that my father was, in a larger way, thinking about our safety and had seen many things in his own life. His mother died when he was 16. He had worked his way through school and had seen many painful things in his life and was trying to protect us from as much of the pain of what he had seen as he could. >>Timothy George: Now, say a word about your grandfather, because he was a very important influence in your life. Tell us about him and his ministry and how he influenced you. >>Caroline McKinstry: My grandfather’s name was Reverend E. W. Burt, Ernest Walter Burt. He was very active in the Baptist Association in Selma, Alabama. As a matter of fact, he served as secretary for many years. My grandfather would travel all over the areas near his home. He lived in Clanton, but he traveled to Jemison, Verbena, Thorsby, all of these areas that were close by. He pastored two churches, because the churches could not afford a full time pastor. Starting when I was about five or six years old my mom would leave me with he and my grandmother in the summers and we would travel to all of the churches in surrounding areas and do vacation bible school. This is where I learned a lot of my programmatic skills, through my grandfather and my grandmother. Not only was he a preacher, he’s a full time teacher. He worked at Chilton County Training School almost 40 years. When he retired he was the principle of the school. My grandfather was very well respected in the neighborhood. I don’t remember ever hearing him yell at anyone. I don’t ever remember hearing him raise his voice. And he would visit people in poverty stricken areas and would take me with him. I remember he would always say, “God loves them no less. We just must do whatever we can to help.” Whether the need was ... In terms of someone having died or if they needed food or whatever the problem was, he just tried to assist. He also performed many weddings in his home. And I was witness many times as a child to the weddings that were taking place. >>Timothy George: So, your own formation, really, as a Christian and as a leader in the church, in some ways, derived from your grandfather and his love for you. >>Caroline McKinstry: Yes. >>Timothy George: And his inclusion of you in his work. Tell us a little bit about growing up in Birmingham in the ‘50s, the early ‘60s? Jim Crowe laws, we hear about those, what are Jim Crowe laws, and how did it impact you and your family in particular as an African American family? >>Caroline McKinstry: Another word for Jim Crowe laws would be segregation laws. Every aspect of social interaction in Birmingham was segregated in 1963. Actually, we didn’t miss that much. We didn’t know about it, as children we didn’t know. Our parents kept us so close to the house. But we were familiar with the signs, the white and colored signs on the water fountains. We knew that we couldn’t go to the zoo or to the amusement park. We didn’t totally understand why, because our parents never really pointed to other people as the reason that we couldn’t go. The reason in our house all the time was that there was no money. And my dad would say, well, for example, when the first Jack’s Hamburgers opened we wanted to buy french fries. We thought that was the grandest thing, french fries. And my dad said, “Well, by the time we buy french fries for six children we could buy a week’s worth of groceries.” So, he used the excuse of money, finances, for almost anything we would ask. But we were very familiar with the order, the segregation order of the day. And the fact of no social interaction. I never had any white teachers. Never saw, never interacted or spoke to anybody. Students either. We arrived at school at 8:30, white schools arrived at 7:30. And then they were out at 2:30 and we were out at 3:15. So, our paths didn’t have an opportunity to cross. We just were, what I like to call, a very obedient generation. Our parents asked us to do things this way and to be respectful and we always tried to do what they asked us to do. >>Timothy George: Some people don’t realize, perhaps, that this was not just a custom, a social custom, it was actually a law. >>Caroline McKinstry: It was actually laws and not just in Birmingham, Alabama but in several other southern states. And there were laws on the books and you can actually still see a lot of those laws today. They covered every aspect of social interaction. The law said things like, “Blacks and whites will not play baseball together, will not play Chinese Checkers together,” I mean, things you probably would never think about putting in the rules, they did. So, they wanted to make sure that there was never any real interaction between black and white. >>Timothy George: Now, tell us about the church, 16th Street Baptist Church, where you became a member. You were baptized. Tell us about your baptism and your involvement in the life of that historic church. I think it’s the first African American Church in Birmingham, right? >>Caroline McKinstry: It was the very first black church built in Birmingham, Alabama. Even before the bombing of the church this church had its own history. We would receive visitors, not me, but back in the day some of the people you would remember that visited there would be W. E. B. DeBoyd, Thurgood Marshall, Marion Anderson – all of these people would visit when they came to Birmingham. By the time that my parents joined the church it was still a very active congregation. All of the pastors of this church had earned doctorates. They had some very good programs in the church. They wrote books on finance for the members so that they could manage their affairs and try to buy homes. There were many educational programs and I attribute, I think, my comfortableness with working with people and just being comfortable with anyone I meet, to the fact that they allowed me to have tremendous interaction with the visitors and the guests and the different people that came through. I enjoyed it especially when the speakers would come through. So, yes, this is a church that had very much a history before the bombing of the church. >>Timothy George: And your pastor was Reverend John Cross in those years. And he’s the one who baptized you, I believe. >>Caroline McKinstry: Reverend John Cross baptized me. I remember very well. It was my ninth grade year. I remember sitting there thinking about it, that the fact that after his sermon he was going to issue a call for anyone who wanted to offer their lives to Christ, to come down front. And I thought about all the work I had done with my grandfather and I just felt that God had a plan for me. I didn’t know ... according to Jeremiah that he really does ... but at that time I just felt very special because my grandfather had told me that I was very special in the eyes of God. So, I made that decision. My mother was not even at church that day. But I made the decision that I wanted to give my life to Christ and I walked down front and the church accepted me, and Reverend Cross baptized me a couple of Sundays later. >>Timothy George: And you talk about how you just looked into the stained glass window, which depicted the face of Jesus as you came up from the waters of baptism. >>Caroline McKinstry: And as I looked at that picture I just felt that God was happy ... I used the word “happy” but today we might say “well pleased” with the decision I had made. I felt especially good about that decision because I made it. It wasn’t that someone else told me to go. My mom was very surprised. When I got home she said someone called and said that you went down front today and offered your life to Christ. And I said, “Yes, I did. I’m going to be doing work as my grandfather is doing.” >>Timothy George: Now, you began to immediately work very actively in the Sunday School. You became the secretary of the Sunday School. And other activities with the youth in that church. >>Caroline McKinstry: Yes, I made several trips on behalf of the church. I had the opportunity to visit Oral Roberts University. I think I was only in the ninth grade when I did that. I attended a national Baptist convention in Detroit back in the day. We had many conferences at our church, but they allowed me to be a volunteer secretary or receptionist, if you will. And so it meant that I met the people, I could take them around the church wherever they needed to go. I could also tell them about the church, the history and the activities that were going on. I really enjoyed meeting these people. And I just love the social interaction that I had with the different people that came through. >>Timothy George: Now this coming Sunday, Caroline, September 15th, is the 50th anniversary of an event that happened at your church. You were present in church that day. It was a Sunday morning. Take us back 50 years ago and walk us through your experience on the morning of September 15th, 1963. >>Caroline McKinstry: I arrived at church about 9:30 on September 15th, 1963. I had two younger brothers with me. My youngest brother, Alan, and then my second brother, Wendell. And I placed them, took them to their Sunday School classes and went upstairs to get my, what I call, secretarial materials. My job was to record attendance, to record financial giving, and then to create a summary and read it at the end of Sunday School. On this Sunday nothing was any different. This was what I did. I passed the reports out and then I sat in my Sunday School class. Around 10:15 I got up and left my Sunday School class and started collecting these same materials again downstairs. And of course you had to pass the girls bathroom to go upstairs. So, when I got ready to pass the girls bathroom, I saw my four friends in there, Addie, Denise, Cynthia, and Carol. They were combing their hair. And we were excited. I spoke to them, but we were excited for two reasons. One, it was youth day. Youth day meant that it was our day. We did the scripture, we did the ushering, we were in charge of everything. So, we were excited for that reason. Cynthia and I were excited because we were a part of a little club and our parents had given us permission to have a meeting at three at one of the homes. Those meetings meant that we got cookies and punch and sometimes we’d even get to play records and dance a little bit. So, we were excited for those two reasons. The Birmingham World had allowed us to put an article in the newspaper about that meeting. We were excited about that. It was the first time that an organization had really been allowed to put an article in the paper. So, once I spoke to them I hurried on and went up the stairs. Two sets of stairs. When I cleared the second set of stairs this is when the phone was ringing in the church office. I was carrying all of these materials and I peeped in. Mrs. Shorter was not there. So, I went in, answered the phone, and the male caller on the other end said, “Three minutes.” >>Timothy George: Just those two words. >>Caroline McKinstry Just “three minutes” was all he said. And he hung up. So, I hung the phone up, still carrying my materials in my arm, I stepped out into the sanctuary and I took about 15 steps. I was at the beginning of the first aisle when the bomb exploded. And I remember just thinking in my mind that it had something to do with weather. I didn’t know if it was rain or thunder, just a really quick thought about weather. But as quickly as I thought that the glass came crashing in. And then I heard screams and I heard someone say, “Hit the floor.” Then it was quiet. And it seemed like a while, but it was probably five or ten seconds. And then I could hear feet. We did not have carpet in the church at that time, and I could hear feet. I could tell that people were running out of the church. So, I got up from the floor and looked around to see which direction everybody was headed out in and I followed. >>Timothy George: And then you looked into that stained glass that you had seen at your baptism and tell us what was there. >>Caroline McKinstry: The face of Christ had been blown out of the window. This was the stained glass window with the caption that read, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock.” And so the face of Christ was missing now from that window. >>Timothy George: Now, after this event you must have been in shock, the whole church, the whole community was in shock. Tell us how you found out that your four friends had lost their lives in the girls bathroom that morning? >>Caroline McKinstry: Well, it was after I got home. I looked for those two little brothers and eventually my father showed up to pick us up, but when I got home it was probably around 12:30 or 1:00. Someone called our home about 3:00-3:30, somewhere in that timeframe, and told my mom that four girls had been killed. She didn’t tell me right away. She waited a little while. And then I remember thinking to myself that they had never made it out of the bathroom. I remembered just passing by the bathroom and going upstairs and I had to think about it to really let it sink in that the girls did not make it out of the bathroom. I remember feeling numb. I remember feeling a little sick inside. I wasn’t sure ... The only funeral I had attended at that point was my grandmother’s funeral. But I understood what death was. What I didn’t understand was why. Why they were dead. >>Timothy George: I few days later there was this funeral for the little girls. Dr. King spoke. 6,000 people were there, both in the church and spilling out into the area outside, because we had no church that would seat 6,000 people in those days. That was a profound moment, wasn’t it? For you, but surely for your family, for the church, and obviously for the parents of those little girls. >>Caroline McKinstry: Absolutely, it was a very profound moment. I think it was a defining moment for me, because it would begin a life of questioning the relationship between people – why we treated each other the way that we did. This is how I would have said it as a 14 or 15 year old. But I remember Dr. King in his eulogy saying that these young girls were beautiful, unoffending, innocent. And that their blood might well serve as a redemptive force, not only for Birmingham, but for our nation and beyond. And so most of us attempted to glean hope from that statement that while we did not yet see it we had faith that their deaths would not be in vain. It was profound, but it was frightening to me. Because I kept thinking that here we were in a place where the problem was the color of your skin. And there wasn’t a solution for that. I kept asking myself what is it we are supposed to do? How do we change what color we are? This is, again, the thinking of a young person. So, what should we do differently? What are we supposed to do here? This is what plagued me. I think I felt that one day I would also die the same way, unless or until I could determine what the remedy was for brown skin. This is how I was looking at it. I even questioned God. I wondered why he would make someone with brown skin if he knew the problems and the conflict would result from brown skin. I mean, again, this is how I was looking at it as a 15 year old. >>Timothy George: Sure. And you kept asking yourself, “Will I be next?” >>Caroline McKinstry: Yes. >>Timothy George: And especially after the bombing that happened to your neighbor, tell us about that. >>Caroline McKinstry: This was in around April of 1964. We were awakened in the middle of the night about 3:00 AM to the sound of another explosion. I was more frightened after this bomb exploded, primarily because when I heard it everything lit up. The middle of the night lit up like it was day. And it was daylight for just a few seconds and then it went black again. And I heard my neighbor, Mrs. Krowle. Her name was Ruth Krowle. She was a school teacher. And her husband was T. L. Krowle. Mr. Krowle and the two boys slept through the bombing. And Mrs. Krowle was walking up and down the street screaming, trying to wake them up. Her screams were so shrill and frightening that we could hear ... In any house on that street you could hear her screaming. So, my father got up. Some of the men got up and went outside. And we weren’t allowed to come outside, but the glass in our home had crashed in. The car was sitting in the driveway and all of the glass was broken in the car. And what we saw that morning ... we had a screened in porch ... what we saw that morning was all of that had been damaged and had fallen down as well. >>Timothy George: You mentioned a moment ago that a part of this process for you was questioning God. One of the questions that was going through your mind, “Why were my friends taken and not me?” “Why am I still here?” >>Caroline McKinstry: Mm hmm (Affirmative). >>Timothy George: And that was difficult for you, wasn’t it, to ponder that? >>Caroline McKinstry: It was very difficult. I asked that question many, many years. I asked it after the girls were killed. But I asked it for many years. And, in fact, when I eventually went off to school as a freshman in Nashville at Fisk University, I was still asking this question and had just what I called a cloud that seemed to just hover over my head everywhere I went. But something that we would probably call depression today. And so I started writing. I still have this box at home. When I would get really, really down I would just take out paper and write. And I don’t like to read those writings much today. I still have them, but I spoke a lot about death and I did ask the question, “Why am I here? God, why am I here? Why did you bring me here in the first place?” Not why am I still living, but eventually it was, “Why am I still living? I don’t know how to function in this world. I don’t know how to be a person in this world that can be happy.” I just couldn’t quite figure out the segregation, the social thing that I had left behind in Birmingham. So, this was how I spent much of my quiet time and it was also how I relieved my anxiety when I would be depressed or when I would be so sad I didn’t feel like doing anything else. I would sit and write and eventually I would feel like getting up and just going out and doing something. But I think it’s significant to mention that I never joined a sorority at school. I joined the history club and a business club, but I didn’t join anything social. Everything was academic. >>Timothy George: You were a good student, yet you still had this cloud over you. And for many years you talk about, you’re so honest and open to discuss your depression, you’ve mentioned that, your alcohol struggles, trying to find a place to stand and to know who you were and why you were here, and what your life was all about. Now, eventually you came to realize that God had spared you for a purpose, for a reason. And much of the rest of your life has been, I think, the seeking and finding and living out of that purpose that you have discerned from God for you, Caroline Mall McKinstry. After these struggles for many years, you said “Gradually, step by step, I felt the Spirit of the Lord upon me.” Which speaks to me about a kind of transformation that is going on within you. Maybe a reclaiming of some of that baptismal faith that you had as a young teenager. And a living out of the meaning of Dr. King’s funeral address for the four little girls, when he said, “These tragic deaths may lead our nation to substitute an aristocracy of character for an aristocracy of color.” And by God’s grace, you have become an instrument of precisely that kind of re-evaluation, transformation, and reconciliation. That’s the heart of the message. Tell us a little bit about how these doors have opened for you and some of the things you have done as a leader in our community and really around the nation in calling for racial reconciliation in particular? >>Caroline McKinstry: I’ll mention several things that I think are important. One of the first things that I did during my time at Beeson, I kept this memory in my mind about my grandmother dying in the basement at Preston Hospital. So, when the time came to select a project or a ministry to work in during that time, my third year I believe, here at Beeson, I chose to go back to Preston Hospital as a Chaplain. I never lost the memory of the scene of my grandmother in the basement. She never really spoke after we brought her there. She never recovered enough to speak. But I never forgot sitting in that basement, looking at the cobblestone floors, the sweaty pipes, and the doctors would come in periodically. I honestly don’t think they knew what was wrong with her. That scene stayed in my mind and I kept feeling that I needed to do something, but I wasn’t sure what the something was. I was drawn to this hospital all the time. And so when I had the opportunity to go back, I did. And I worked there for a year as a chaplain. And it gave me great peace. I felt restored when I left Preston, but it gave me great peace to go to the various rooms, to speak with the patients, to pray with the patients. They were patients of all colors and cultures. I never had anyone say, “I don’t want you to pray for me.” “No, I don’t want you to come in the room.” I was grateful to God for the opportunity to show that all of us can be instruments if we are willing. I’m grateful that through me they were able to see that God loves us all and he uses those who allow themselves to be used. And so this was a very good year for me in the sense that I felt restored. I felt that, to some extent, I had redeemed some of what had happened when my grandmother was there. >>Timothy George: And she was in the basement because she was a person of color, right? >>Caroline McKinstry: She was in the basement because she was a person of color. My grandmother taught first grade and was a very gentle, little, tiny, small woman. But never ... could not even tell us during her time there if she was feeling well or if she was being treated well. She never regained enough consciousness to talk to us. But I felt very proud that my mom had said that we need someone to stay with her and we have to work, so we need you. And I loved my grandmother. I loved her. Grandparents, you can do no wrong. So, I loved my grandmother and was happy to be there with her. Was really sad when she died. And it was just a memory that would not leave my mind, but I was able to reconcile myself to everything when I worked that year. >>Timothy George: Now, Caroline, in 2001, that was many years of course after 1963, this wound in your life of having been a witness to this horrible event was re-opened in a way because you received a subpoena to give testimony in the trial of Bobby Frank Cherry. Tell us who Bobby Frank Cherry was and your role in that trial? >>Caroline McKinstry: Bobby Frank Cherry was the very last man convicted of the bombing, the 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, in which those four young girls died. I was subpoenaed to give testimony, but I was subpoenaed by the attorney for Bobby Frank Cherry. >>Timothy George: For the defense. >>Caroline McKinstry: For the defense. Right. It was quite a surprise. I remember being really anxious and nervous. And then just plain sick. Because I was trying to anticipate why he would have subpoenaed me to that trial. When I spoke to the prosecuting attorney he says, “Well, I don’t know either why he would have done that. But you just come on.” And I actually asked the question, “Do I have to come?” And he says, “Well, Caroline, if you get a subpoena and you don’t show up they arrest people that don’t show up.” So, I just prayed about it. My husband took off from work and went with me that day. I gave testimony on the witness stand. I was also placed in the holding room with the family of Bobby Frank Cherry before we actually entered the court room. But they were fairly friendly. There were no unkind words or incidents or anything. I recently received a letter that come from the cell mate of Bobby Frank Cherry. Bobby Frank Cherry died and wanted everyone to know that not only had he confessed to the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church but that he had also repented. He had asked God to forgive him for this crime. And it says ... Keeping in mind that this letter is from the cell mate of Bobby Frank Cherry, “I am Willard Avon Evans, II, 33 years old, born March 4, 1978. Currently incarcerated for 15 years. I live in Birmingham, Alabama. I read your story in the Alabama Baptist News, February 17th, 2011. I met Bobby Frank Cherry in 2004 at Holman Prison. We were in lock up together. Sister McKinstry, Bobby Frank Cherry confessed to me his role in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing incident. Also I led him to Christ Jesus. He repented and he asked God for forgiveness of his sins. He accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. We used to pray together and study God’s Words together.” Again, this is from Willard Evans. He says, “In Christ Jesus,” he just wanted us to know. >>Timothy George: Now, years before you received that letter you, yourself had said after this trial is over he had been convicted, by God’s grace I chose to forgive Cherry and all the others who live lives of hate. You said it was a difficult road but it’s also the road to ultimate freedom. You still feel that way today? >>Caroline McKinstry: Yes. I still feel that way today. I believe in forgiveness with all my might. One of my favorite books about forgiveness is Desmond Tutu’s, “No Future Without Forgiveness.” I also believe that, according to the Word of God, the extent to which we forgive others we are forgiven. The greatest forgiveness occurred with Jesus on the cross. That is for us. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 tells us that while we were yet in sin, or while we were yet sinners, that God forgave us and made a way, created a path for us to follow so that we might be forgiven of that sin, in that path we follow Jesus Christ and we’re forgiven. We’re able to start our lives anew. And God has said to us that to the extent that we are forgiven that extent we must forgive others. So, I do believe that it is the way that we release ourselves from the bondage of hatred. Whatever has happened in your life, if you’re willing to turn that loose, if you’re willing to give up the right to be right, then you can move forward knowing that you’ve released this from your life, you’ve given it to God. We’re also admonished to pray for your enemies, pray for those that misuse us, and I think the greatest lesson of forgiveness that we can have is the one that’s told in Luke 23:34, where dying on the cross Jesus says, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” And so this is the lesson that emanated on September 15th, 1963, a love that forgives. And we’ve tried to practice that lesson, but we’ve also brought, come full circle, 50 years later, and brought that lesson back. And we have asked pulpits and churches across our nation if they would engage Sunday School and the sermon from the pulpit in that text, Luke 23:34, a love that forgives. >>Timothy George: My guest today on the Beeson Podcast has been the Reverend Doctor Caroline Mall McKinstry. She’s a graduate of Fisk University, Beeson Divinity School, and this last spring received an honorary doctoral degree from Samford University. Caroline, thank you for sharing your life and your story. Let me just say that if anyone would like to read this, you’ve put it into a book entitled, “While the World Watched,” published by Tyndale Publishing Company. It’s a wonderful book. You’re a wonderful person. >>Caroline McKinstry: Thank you, Dr. George. I am honored to have been here. And if I could add one thing to the book, listeners may download the book, free, September 15th and September 16th, if they have Kindles in their home or wherever. So, we invite everyone to read the book or to download from the internet on the 15th and the 16th, free of charge. >>Timothy George: It’s the story of Caroline Mall McKinstry, “While the World Watched.” Thank you so much. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.