Beeson Podcast, Episode #584 Dr. Kevin Vanhoozer & Dr. Daniel Treier Jan. 18, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. And we are delighted to welcome two good friends on the show today. Doctors Kevin J. VanHoozer and Daniel J. Trier. And to tell you about a festschrift Dan and I have published in honor of our friend Kevin’s 65th birthday. As some of you will know, a festschrift is a book published in honor of a prominent person, usually a scholar, festschrift’s then usually feature chapters that engage and extend that scholar’s interests. And this particular festschrift engages and extends a lifetime of work by Dr. VanHoozer on evangelical hermeneutics, or the study of evangelical interpretation of scripture. Let me make two brief announcements before we dive in. First, our spring term starts this week and it is full of opportunities for you to join us on campus or online for special events. For example, our annual Conger Preaching Lectures begin on February 1st. This year’s lecture is Dr. Michael Knowles of McMaster Divinity College in Hamilton, Ontario. To learn about the Conger Lectures and other exciting events, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. Second and finally our last Preview Day of this academic year is Friday, February 4th. Preview Days are designed for prospective students. They’ll hear from faculty, students, staff, from myself, they’ll visit a class, break bread with us, have a great time. And their application fees will be waived for their attendance. If you or someone you love would like to join us for Preview Day, register at www.BeesonDivinity.com/previewday. All right. Let’s turn now to our guests and the festschrift we have published in Dr. VanHoozer’s honor entitled, “Hearing and Doing the Word: The Drama of Evangelical Hermeneutics.” And let’s begin with introductions. Dan, you are the Gunther H. Knowler Professor of Theology at Wheaton College. What else should our listeners know about you? What’s your background and how did you come to faith in Jesus Christ? >>Treier: I grew up on a farm in Ohio and my mother led me to a profession of faith in the Lord at age four or five. We were then involved in a series of Methodist and Brethren churches until I went off to Cedarville University, Cedarville College as it was then, and then Grand Rapids Theological Seminary for two masters degrees before doing my PhD with Kevin at TEDS. I’m married to Amy Black Trier and her stage name is Amy Black, author of several books on Christians in politics. And we have a teenage daughter named Anna. >>Doug Sweeney: Great. Kevin, you are the Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Tell our listeners a little more. How did you come to faith? And what’s the overall shape, in 60 seconds or so, of your theological life? >>Vanhoozer: I was sent off to Sunday School as a young boy and came back with questions about the Bible; questions that led to my mother reading the Bible and herself coming to faith, which is an appropriate story I suppose for this festschrift and this conversation. I’ve been on the podcast before, but my main claim to fame for present purposes is that I was a former professor of Dan Trier and Doug Sweeney. I’m still doing the same thing 35 years later, teaching – sometimes cheerleading for systematic theology with students from all over the world. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, that’s a nice segue into the question that I want to ask Dan and Doug today before we get into talking about the festschrift and talking to you, Kevin, about evangelical theology. I’m interested to know about your relationship with Kevin. Kevin has mentioned that he was your professor, both of your professors. So, I’d love to know more about that relationship. Doug, how about we start with you? >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, I have known Dr. VanHoozer for a very long time. I first met him sometime in the late 1980’s when I was a student at Trinity. And he was a recently minted PhD from Cambridge University. I was one of his students. I remember taking his seminar on Karl Barth and enjoying it very much. But I think I got to know him best when he returned to Trinity after a period of time, I forget how many years exactly, teaching theology at Edinburgh University. Trinity wooed him back. I think it was the late 1990’s. By which time I was there teaching already and Kevin and I became good friends from that point forward. I like to tell him he is my favorite living theologian. I think that’s probably still true though I have lots of favorites here at Beeson Divinity School as well. >>Kristen Padilla: And Dan, what about you? >>Treier: I contact Kevin about doing PhD work in theology at Edinburgh in 1997. We swapped a few emails back and forth, which was a fairly new technology then. And about six weeks later Kevin wrote and said that he was coming back to Trinity. So, that dashed my hopes of raising money and spending all of these glorious years in the picturesque setting of Edinburgh University. But I’m very thankful for God’s providence. What Deerfield, Illinois lacks in aesthetics it more than made up for in formative impact for me. So, I actually met Kevin in person when he freshly moved back and when I freshly moved to Deerfield to take up studies in 1998. I served as his TA. I got to come over to his house a fair bit. His family was very nice to adopt this single person into ... coming over for meals and tea and whatnot and watching mystery movies that his young daughters then were filming around the house and any number of interesting things. As time went on then I maybe should say that Kevin and Sylvie have a special place in our hearts because I was able to teach both of his daughters, their theology course at Wheaton. And then our daughter was able to be in their daughter’s wedding. But before all of that, Kevin preached the sermon at Amy and my wedding. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, I think we sound biased already. I think we’ve also done a pretty even handed job putting this festschrift together, Dan. Let’s dive in and talk about it just a little bit and talk about the theological career that it represents. Again, the title of the festschrift is “Hearing and Doing the Word: The Drama of Evangelical Hermeneutics in Honor of Kevin VanHoozer.” The title of the festschrift is based on titles of other books written by Kevin. Most significantly, “The Drama of Doctrine,” and another book he did called, “Hearers and Doers.” Kevin, why don’t we start talking about your theological career by asking you what you think or what you want us to think about the relationship between theology and drama? >>Vanhoozer: Right, well, I see drama as story that is embodied, story made flesh. And if at the heart of Christian theology is the story of the eternal Word of God made flesh, then the substance of Christian theology is intrinsically dramatic. It was [Gerardus Vos 00:08:23] who pointed out that God inscribed his revelation not in a dogmatic system but in a book of history. And history simply recounts the actions of humans and of God in the past. So, the essence of Christianity, what I’m trying to spell out and exposit as a theologian, isn’t a system of timeless truths so much, but a series of timefull action. The Father putting everything and everyone right in Christ through the Holy Spirit. It was also Vos, by the way, who described the Bible as an historical book full of dramatic interests. So, that’s one way I think theology is dramatic. Its focus is on God’s sayings and doings in history, the history of Israel, the history of Jesus, the history of the Church. But there’s a second sense in which theology is dramatic. I think theology’s purpose is to help the Church make disciples. People who can respond rightly to the divine address in scripture. People who hear and do God’s Word. So, the drama of biblical interpretation, it’s all concentrated in the pause between the divine address and the human response. I think of all those stories in scripture that the Word of the Lord comes to a prophet or a people and as soon as the word “Lord” comes the urgent question is, “How will they respond?” And that’s the essence of drama – seeing how one person will respond to another, moment after moment. So, in other words, how readers respond to scripture is caught up in the drama that scripture recounts. What are we going to do when the Word of the Lord comes to us? >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Kevin. I should say to our listeners, if you haven’t caught by now, I am putting Doug, our co-host, on the hot seat since he has co-edited this book with Dan. But Kevin, that was a wonderful introduction to your evangelical theology. For our listeners who want to read your work, which book would you recommend that they start with? >>Vanhoozer: If they want to go chronologically I’d recommend, “The Drama of Doctrine.” But if they want to start with something that’s more directed to the Church for the work day, you know, vocation of the pastor, I’d suggest, “Faith, Speaking, and Understanding.” >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you. So, we encourage you to get both of those books, actually, and read them. They will edify you. Dan and Doug, I want to turn back to you now to talk more about the festschrift itself. You mentioned at the top of the show, Doug, that you put this together in honor of Dr. VanHoozer’s 65th birthday. But I would love to know more about how this project came to be. What led you all to putting it together with the contributors who you chose? How was the book divided? And what is your intended hope for the book? Doug, I wonder if I can start with you, again? >>Doug Sweeney: Sure. Let me give it a start and let Dan fill in as well. This book has been a long time in the making. Dan and I have been scheming for many years about it and thinking carefully along with our friend Sylvie VanHoozer, Kevin’s wife, about how best to honor Kevin. And what kinds of other friends to include in the festschrift. Because Kevin’s interests as a theologian are fairly wide ranging and include biblical studies, biblical exegesis, historical theology, and systematic theology, he has former students and friends who are involved as specialists in all of those areas. And we thought it would be a good idea to produce a festschrift that represented those areas. Again, the thing all of the essays and the festschrift have in common is that they engage Kevin’s interests and most of the time extend them as well in conversation with Kevin and his work. But the book itself is organized in a tripartite way. There’s a part one called, “The Biblical Script,” that features essays in biblical exegesis, biblical theology, that engage Kevin and his work. Then there’s a part two we’ve called, “Great Performances.” That part features historical theological essays that engage Kevin and his work. And then part three we called, “Theo Drama Today.” And that part features contemporary systematic theological work in conversation with Kevin as well. And let’s see, Dan, how did we come up with the list of people who contributed to this? I think we flipped coins and prayed hard, and tried not to offend anybody. >>Treier: At least a couple of breakfasts, I recall. (laughs) It’s a combination of students as we’ve said that Kevin has mentored. Friends that are peers, scattered far and wide. Also some colleagues. Of course, we started this process in something like 2013, which was a long time ago. So, there are newer colleagues of Kevin now at TEDS that would have been happy to participate, but were not yet on the scene when we started developing this list. We did well at getting positive responses to our recruitment. Unfortunately, John Webster passed away. So, we needed to find another writer on Karl Barth after John’s, from our perspective, untimely death. But otherwise we were just very pleased to get a nice representation of mentors of Kevin and in a case or two, friends, colleagues, and peers, and students. Some folks will remember these volumes that were edited by Trinity faculty members and authored by members of the Trinity faculty back in the ‘80s and early ‘90s. Hermeneutics authority and canon, scripture and truth, doing theology in today’s world, these were kinds of evangelical state of the question volumes on doing theology in a way that honored the authority of scripture. I do think that this book will not have the same impact as those volumes did because it’s a different time and place in evangelicalism. But we hope with some modesty that they will present a kind of evangelical state of the question on issues in hermeneutics and the interpretation of scripture in the way that those volumes did very helpfully about 30 years ago. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, that’s a good word. Why don’t we talk about both the state of evangelical theology these days and then in a more particular way let’s talk about the state of evangelical hermeneutics, evangelical biblical hermeneutics in particular? Kevin, could we ask you the next question? How has evangelical theology changed over the course of your career? And what would you say are its main challenges these days? Could you talk just a little bit to our listeners about where you found evangelical theology as a young man at Cambridge back in the 1980’s? What you hope to have contributed to evangelical theology over the course of your life and where you think we are now and where we ought to be heading moving forward? >>Vanhoozer: Sure. Well, I had the good fortune to receive, I think, an excellent education at an evangelical college, Westmont, with excellent biblical scholars and philosophers. And I was very pleased to see there that the evangelicals weren’t afraid to confront non evangelical scholarship. So, I’ve always kept that ... to listen, to learn, or if necessary to do battle. Over the years, though, the more I got trained and got involved in evangelical theology, I came to have a few concerns about its current state. For example, I was concerned that it was too often on the defensive. The motto wasn’t always reforming but always reacting. (laughs) I really hope that we can get beyond just reacting to maintain a status quo. One way to do that is to get a the root of what it means to be evangelical. That is, what it means to be corresponding to the gospel. One of the challenges I think, then, has been for evangelical theology to be faithful yet constructive. Maybe even creative. Secondly, I got concerned over the years. When I was at Cambridge, and after, evangelical theology’s tendency to fight its opponents on its opponent’s terms often. That is trying to use the exegetical or critical weapons, or the philosophical weapons of the people they were discussing with. It was a well intentioned but partially misguided strategy I think. I got tired of seeing academic cases made for, say, the Pauline authorship of the pastorals. I wanted to know what the pastorals were about, what they were saying. That was a way of reacting, you see, to criticisms that, “Paul didn’t write that.” Thirdly, I came to see that evangelicals probably could do more to appreciate the theological significance of the literary forms of the Bible as well as the content of scripture. And then this is before I went to Cambridge but while I was doing mission work in France, I really came to see the extent to which culture shapes our reading of scripture. That’s been confirmed over the years as well. North American evangelicals are often so busy pointing out the specks in liberal’s eyes that they don’t notice the cultural log in their own. So, those are some of the concerns. As to my own attempts at contributing something positive, let me just mention two areas. What it means to be biblical and then, second, what it means to be theological. They’re related, of course, because the Bible is the soul of theology and arguably theology is a kind of exegesis, a kind of conceptual ministry of scripture. Every theologian has to refer to scripture as a warrant for what she says about God and everything else related to God. Yet being biblical, I hope I’ve tried to contribute and hope I’ve successfully contributed, being biblical also means attending to scripture’s literary forms, the way things are said, not just what is said. I’ve given special, but not exclusive, attention to narrative, given the importance of story in theology, and I think my interest in drama is actually a culmination of the fruit of that interest in story at the heart of scripture. And then as to what it means to be theological ... I think it was only after I began teaching at Trinity that I really came to see and feel how poor in opinion many Christians, even prospective pastors, had of theology. When I first started teaching out, maybe you’ll remember this Doug, the inside dope on systematic’s was that it was impractical and irrelevant to the life of the Church. So, I hope I’ve contributed something to how we think about theology. It’s anything but impractical and irrelevant. I’ve tried to argue that doctrine is direction for Christian thinking and living. Doctrine is instruction in Christian wisdom. And wisdom has to do with knowing what to say and what to do to correspond to the gospel, to fit rightly into what God is doing in Christ. And I think that’s very practical and relevant, and I would add, urgent. Another way I’ve tried to contribute something, and I need to do more on this, as concerns what it means to be theological, is by returning to the doctrine of God, because I had thought for years that the doctrine of God was a weak spot in evangelical theology, to be frank. And then openness theology happened. (laughs) It’s all tied together, of course, because it has to do with a reading of scripture and the openness theists were reading scripture as though God were a kind of creature at large, reacting to what happened in the world much the same way we do. So, that was a crisis in hermeneutics and in theology. My book, “Re-mythologizing Theology” tried to respond to that by diving deep into the biblical accounts of God’s speech and action, and trying to explore the ontology implicit in those biblical accounts, and dialogue with classical theism. So, those are some of the ways that I can think of. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Kevin. Dan, I want to follow up with you and ask what enduring lessons you have learned from Professor VanHoozer who you’ve already said was your Dr. [inaudible 00:21:50]. How have you seen Kevin’s influence in evangelical theology, especially as it relates to your own scholarship? >>Treier: Well, as you can tell [22:05] ... tease him about that, but also say one of the things that I learned most significantly from Kevin and have tried to emulate is a desire to describe and analyze, understand, those that you’re in theological dialogue or especially disagreement with in a way that if they were sitting there in the classroom they would think that their position had been faithfully expounded and it’s best version, rather than its weak points had been paraded in front of the audience. Kevin is a very dialogical theologian, or he triangulates lots of times different voices, but part of the reason he does that is a kind of ethical commitment, really, to understand the other as a way of coming to understand God’s truth and of loving the other along the way. So, I’ve certainly learned that. I think it has sometimes led to the length of Kevin’s books. But I think it’s very hard for people to critique that he hasn’t really carefully studied and understood and treated graciously the sources of his interlocutors. So, that’s one key lesson. He treats his students really well, too. Whether it’s having them over at the house or giving prompt responses to their work with detailed comments, but also with a focus on the kind of big picture lessons that most need to be addressed, and he both seasons those big picture lessons with salt, but provides a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. I have particular anecdotes in mind that I won’t belabor now, but there are still phrases ringing in my head from some of those occasions sitting there over coffee or tea and getting his responses to my chapters. And then I’ll just quickly name two other things. He has consistently spoken of a desire to train pastors and a kind of responsibility to the next generation of evangelical churches. I know that has concretely shaped a number of vocational decisions that he has made or has not made over the years. And that’s a constant reminder that is always in front of me as a stewardship of vocation. And then I think of Kevin and Sylvie and their household as a kind of outpost of Christian humanism. J I Packer, vital evangelical theologian of a former generation, spoke of Christian humanism. And if you grew up where I grew up in fundamentalism you didn’t think those two words could go together. And Kevin has embodied for me ways that Christian humanism could go together. That the doctrine of creation could really be integrated with Christology and redemption in the way that one lives. >>Doug Sweeney: Hey, man, Dan, I echo that sentiment wholeheartedly. We ought to get to talking about evangelical hermeneutics in particular and Kevin’s work in hermeneutics. Kevin, let me ask you this question. Insofar as you have tried to contribute to the development of evangelical theology over the course of your own lifetime as an interpreter of scripture and a theorist of biblical interpretation what have you tried to do and what influences have shaped the way in which you’ve contributed to evangelical theology as somebody interested in hermeneutics? >>Vanhoozer: I think what I’ve largely tried to do is to be biblical, but that’s involved in figuring out what it means to be biblical. And we can start maybe just with the fact that the Bible contains language. It’s a text. It’s made up of different kinds of literature. There’s language in it. And as far as influences, I think when I was at Cambridge, which was the place to be to think about language in a Wittgensteinian way, Wittgenstein helped me to understand that language isn’t simply something that conveys information, it is a form of action itself. Wittgenstein, a famous philosopher at Cambridge, before my time but his influence was still there. He focused on what we do with words and I just thought this is very important. God is doing things with words and we’re doing things with words as interpreters, as we interpret scripture. And Wittgenstein was particularly interested on the way that uses of language were tied to particular practices and forms of life. And all of these things have resonance with theology in the ministry of the Word. Two other dialogue partners that I had at the time were Anthony Thistleton and Nick Waltersdorf. All of us were trying to think through the implications for the doctrine of scripture and for hermeneutics and really the ministry of the Word of the fact that the Word is something that God uses to do things. Of course, I have to mention Paul Riquer, he was the subject of my doctoral dissertation. He was the first, I think, to push me to articulate the difference between philosophical and theological hermeneutics. He wrote on that. I ended up disagreeing with the way he did it, but I always will be grateful for him pushing me to do it. Karl Barth also pressed home this point, the difference between general hermeneutics, the way we read every other book and the way we read scripture in particular. Especially in his prefaces to his Romans commentary. And then I think more recently the angel at my shoulder has been John Webster. Also a Cambridge grad. A couple of years ahead of me, actually. But he has urged me to resist returning to the Egypt of philosophical hermeneutics, if we can call it that, to the bondage that is philosophical hermeneutics, and so simply to have the courage of my evangelical convictions. >Treier: You have, if I can interrupt ... You have at least plundered the Egyptians maybe in ways that John could have learned from. >>Vanhoozer: That’s a nice way of putting it. (laughs) But hopefully they haven’t taken me captive. That’s always the risk of going back, right? So, as to what I’ve tried to contribute to evangelical hermeneutics, if I had to put it in one word, the word would be “literacy.” But then I’d want to qualify it. (laughs) Biblical literacy, historical literacy, cultural literacy, and then theological literacy. And by “literacy” I mean the ability to read and write. The ability to read texts and make sense of them. Whether they’re biblical texts, cultural texts, fictional texts, or doctrinal texts. I’m interested in all of those texts. They are an ingredient in the Christian life and in discipleship. And then if I had to be more specific and name something more particular than literacy, I think as I’ve already said I have an interest in the use of language. So, seeing biblical language as discourse, divine and human discourse. I think my interest in the literary forms of the Bible has led me to see the importance of the imagination for reading scripture, to always keep the big picture in mind. I also hope that I’ve contributed a practical aim to biblical interpretation. It isn’t simply about academic correctness. I mean, really, the purpose of reading the Bible is to shape readers, Christian readers, into a holy nation. So, when I mention literacy I’m always in the back of my mind thinking about helping people to become competent citizens of the gospel. People who can read the gospel, understand it, and somehow begin to live out its truth. Again, I’ve also realized over the years that other cultural texts – films, novels, songs, TV commercials and so on, other texts are jockeying for the role of becoming our control story. So, I’ve wanted my students to appreciate just how powerful a means of spiritual formation culture can be. So, we need to read cultural texts as well as biblical texts. And then I’m also aware that my particular theological tradition needs to be in communion with other Christian traditions. My focus is on the gospel, but if I’m honest I have to admit that other churches have believed and received the gospel, too. So, the Catholic tradition has become more important to me over the years as well. And then I’ll just mention one other thing. I believe it’s really important for readers of scripture not simply to master technical methodological procedures, but to develop what I call the interpretive virtues. These are habits of reading, which is to say habits of the head and habits of the heart, that are conducive to understanding. And when I say understanding I mean theoretical and practical understanding. In other words, I really want my students and others to become the kind of people when they read scripture who will understand who God is, what he is saying, and respond appropriately in word and deed. And that means that I’m thinking about the process of biblical interpretation, not only with the reader in view, someone who needs to acquire intellectual virtue, but I’ve come to think about the whole process of biblical interpretation with theological categories. Like sin and sanctification. Those help a lot. Again, I did mention this earlier, the unifying theme of all these concerns I think is wisdom. Doing theology so that we don’t just acquire knowledge for our intellect, but ways of living to the glory of God. Ways of living that will be conducive for human flourishing. And again, I think reading the Bible isn’t just for professionals. It isn’t just for exegetes. Every Christian has to read and hear and do God’s Word if we’re going to grow in our discipleship, which means becoming more like Jesus Christ. >>Kristen Padilla: I want to take this opportunity to thank you, Kevin VanHoozer, for your ministry. I have greatly benefitted from your ministry. I’ve read, “The Drama of Doctrine.” I love your emphasis on the Holy Spirit and how the Spirit helps us with biblical interpretation in reading God’s Word as well. We always like to end the show by hearing what the Lord is doing in the life, or lives, of our guests. What the Lord has been teaching you these days. And so, Dan, I wonder if we can start with you and then Kevin we’ll give you the last word. >>Treier: Well, I’ll just mention the words “patience” and “hope” with respect to the evangelical situation at the moment, whether that’s our higher educational and graduate theological institutions and the uncharted waters that they are entering, or the cultural and political scene. It’s easy to be discouraged or feel a bit adrift. I have realized recently that ... I mean, Doug is the evangelical historian here so I should be cautious about grand narrative claims, but that I entered my vocation at a relatively easy time in which the Kevin VanHoozer’s and other pioneers of the 1970’s and ‘80s had made a way for a new era of evangelical scholarship and teaching and cultural engagement. I have benefitted from those pioneers. And so everything as I entered the scene in the mid to late ‘90s, everything seemed to be on the upswing. And it was culturally somewhat challenging in minor ways, but mostly easy in major ways to see that we were in this project that was making great progress. And now I think we wonder about the future of the educational and church formational project. And it’s easy to be discouraged. So, I’m trying to learn to cultivate patience and hope. >>Vanhoozer: If I have to name a pair of things I will choose “wakefulness” and “wisdom.” I did some preaching on this theme and I’m always preaching to myself the importance of staying awake as a disciple. And wakefulness I think is not just being awake but it’s being attentive. Attentive to what God is asking me to do at every point in my Christian pilgrimage. My wife, Sylvie, calls this the art of living in season. And she’s thinking not only of the seasons of nature, though I have had to learn to pay attention to what grows where and when. (laughs) Because only those things show up on my dining table. But also the seasons of the church year and the seasons of life. And that leads me to wisdom as well. Going through the seasons of life I realize I’m not in control of any season. (laughs) But I am responsible for the way I respond to my particular life situations. And so wisdom for me is this ability to respond in graceful and grateful ways to God’s lordship in my life. And then since we’re talking about drama, I’ll say this ... though I’m only 65, it’s never too early to begin rehearsing one’s death scene. Especially if you want to die well to the glory of God. >>Doug Sweeney: My goodness, what a powerful way to end. Thank you, Kevin, for a lifetime of very faithful scholarship in the field of evangelical hermeneutics and beyond. Thank you for exemplifying divine wisdom in your daily life and walk and in your work as well. Thank you both Dan and Kevin for being with us today. Listeners, Dan Trier by way of reminder is the Gunther H. Knowler Professor of Theology at Wheaton College. Kevin VanHoozer is Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. They are both dear friends of mine. I am grateful to Kevin for being my teacher. I’m grateful to Dan for being my friend and colleague and co-editor of, “Hearing and Doing the Word: The Drama of Evangelical Hermeneutics in Honor of Kevin VanHoozer.” Again, we commend the volume to you. More importantly we commend Kevin’s life and work and witness to you. Thank you very much for being with us today. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.