Beeson Podcast, Episode #648 Dr. Scott Gibson Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We are joined today by one of the best known teachers of Christian preaching anywhere. He is here on campus this week giving our Conger Lectures in Preaching. And spending some quality time with our faculty and our students. We are thrilled that he is here. But before we introduce him, let me invite you back to campus for yet more public happenings. Next week is our World Christianity Focus Week here at Beeson Divinity School. And Dr. Diane Stinton will be our speaker. She serves as Associate Professor of Mission Studies and Dean of Students at Regent College in Vancouver. She will speak in Hodges Chapel on April 11. And then give a lecture on Wednesday, April 12 as well. And then the following week, our own professor, Doug Webster, will speak at one of our Day With A Beeson Author events. Find out more on our website www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. All right, Kristen. Who is this year’s Conger Lecturer? >>Kristen Padilla: This year’s Conger Preaching Lecturer is Dr. Scott Gibson. He holds the David E. Garland Endowed Chair in Preaching and serves as the Director of the Doctor of Philosophy in Preaching program at the George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University. So, we’re really pleased he’s with us today. He has earned degrees from the University of Oxford, the University of Toronto, Princeton Theological Seminary, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and Pennsylvania State University. And he’s the author and editor of many books, including ... I’m going mention just two here, but Homiletics and Hermeneutics: Four Views of Preaching Today, and The Big Idea of Biblical Preaching. So, welcome, Dr. Gibson, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Gibson: Thank you very much. It’s great to be here with you. >>Kristen Padilla: It’s great to be here with you! Well, I’ve given a short professional bio of you. But I wonder if you can introduce yourself on a more personal level to our listeners by sharing with us how you came to faith in Jesus Christ? >>Dr. Gibson: Sure. I’m always happy to be able to share about my coming to faith in Christ. And it’s because of coming out of a non Christian home. My father was an alcoholic and so I really didn’t have any exposure to the gospel, to the church, or anything. So, I was asked while I was working at a fruit and vegetable stand with some other high school students if I would like to attend a Christian music concert. And I really didn’t know what a Christian music concert was all about. And I said, “well, is there going to be any preaching there?” (laughs) And the person said, “No. No. There’s not going to be any preaching there.” I didn’t know much about preaching then or anything about preaching then ... I really don’t know much about preaching now, but anyway ... (laughs). I went, and it was a rural country Baptist church where a college-age singing group sang the gospel. I heard the gospel through music. And at the end of the service the pastor explained more specifically what the gospel is all about. And I knew that that’s what I needed in my life. The emptiness of my life would be filled with Christ. So, I remember going up and praying to receive Christ, looking back at a row filled with other students around my age. I was about 14 at the time. And they were smiling – they were beaming. And that church took me in, nurtured me, loved me, discipled me, cared for me – put their fingerprints all over me and they’re still there today. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Gibson, we know you’re a humble guy and you don’t think you’re a great homiletician, but we think you’re a great homiletician, a very helpful teacher of other preachers. Our listeners, they’re church people, pastors, seminary folks – they’re probably interested in knowing just a little bit, given the fact that you’re in your senior years of seminary instruction these days – how does somebody like Scott Gibson become the sort of person he is as a minister? What was your schooling like? What was your pastoral ministry like? What are the things that the Lord has used in your history to prepare you to serve in the ways you serve now? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, I’ll begin answering that with my life verse. My favorite verse. And that is Proverbs 20:24. Which says, “A man or a woman or a boy’s steps are directed by the Lord.” And then the second part of it is a question: “How then can anyone understand his own way?” And you can’t, unless you trust the Lord, depend on the Lord that leads you. And so I came to faith and had no real idea what I was going to do in life. I don’t come from a family that had any college education on either side of my family. And so I went to vocational school. I trained to become a printer, printing layout design, that kind of thing. And so I was looking at a life of being a printer. I was in my senior year in high school and I was exceedingly bored running the printing press. And my curious mind was wandering all over the place and I went to the guidance counselor and said, “What are my choices? What can I do?” Because I really didn’t train to go an academic route. Well, he said, “Probably the best way for you to get an education would be to go to Penn State University. They have a vocational industrial education program. And you could teach printing layout and design.” Basically, what I had to do is almost get a journeyman’s license in printing and then I would have credentialing to teach at a vocational school. So, that’s what I did. I think looking back I probably had many other choices than what the guidance counselor gave me, but that was my exposure to what might be the possibilities ahead. So, I did. And in my freshman year at the end of it I sensed a call to go into ministry. What do you do? Do I stay as a printer or a printing teacher or what do I do? Well, I didn’t change my major. I thought, I’m going to go through with this. It was a five year program. And I thought, I’ll go through with this because if I become a pastor and I’m in a rural context and have to be bi-vocational, I’ll have something in my back pocket. I’ll be a printer, or I could teach at a vocational school. So, that’s what I did. I graduated from Penn State ... not the state pen ... went to Penn State, from there to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. There was a person who was the intervarsity director at our campus at Penn State, connected me with a person at Gordon-Conwell and he was the admissions director and I went up to visit and I had considered other schools, but when I went there I thought this is the place I want to be. And there were Baptists there. And I thought, here are some smart Baptists! Some intelligent Baptists. I thought, this is great! (laughs) So, I decided to go there. And during that time I was curious about preaching and I received a scholarship. By the way, my family told me that they didn’t have any money for me to go to college. And so they said you’d have to do it on your own. Whatever, they didn’t have the money, I didn’t have the money. But the way the Lord worked, again, a man/woman/boy’s steps are directed by the Lord. And I’m 90% blind in my right eye. And I got what’s called a vocational rehabilitation scholarship that paid for my entire schooling at Penn State. So, when I went off to Gordon-Conwell, having non Christian parents, they were not in any way interested in helping me. And so I went there on faith and my home church sent me money, the people would send me checks every week, and it would go towards my bill. And I remember the Bursar there and I’d carry a check to his office and leave it on the counter, and he’d look at me and said, “What’s that? Another check from one of your old lady friends?” And I said, “Yes.” “Well, praise the Lord.” (laughs) So, I had a great experience at Gordon-Conwell. And I received a scholarship called The Parish Pulpit Fellowship that I was enabled to go overseas. It was a scholarship that was for somebody who demonstrated promise in preaching. So, it had to be done overseas and my preaching professor said, “Well, you’re a Baptist and Oxford has a Baptist College, so go to Oxford.” And I thought, I am totally unprepared to go to Oxford. But I went. They accepted me. I studied the life and preaching of A J Gordon of the Gordon side of Gordon-Conwell. He was a Baptist minister in Boston and wrote his biography. And then I went into the pastorate and served for a few years and then went back to school. I thought, I needed to do something perhaps different with my work on the doctorate. And tried Princeton Seminary. Thought maybe I could study because I’d not finished the doctorate from Oxford yet. I thought, oh no, I need to finish this degree. And then I got a fellowship, a scholarship from the Rotary Foundation. And that’s how I ended up at the University of Toronto. So, I can say – this man’s steps are directed by the Lord – because they were not in any playbook that I could have come up with. But it was God’s. And even getting the job at Gordon-Conwell and so forth. I’m just so grateful. So, yes. It’s the Lord. >>Doug Sweeney: And did that happen as soon as you were done with all of that graduate school? >>Dr. Gibson: I was still finishing up the doctorate from Oxford and all the archives were at Gordon-Conwell and Gordon College. So, I wasn’t married at the time yet. So, I moved up there after having been pastor. I said I’ve got to get this thing done. And I had taken care of my father. He was ill with cancer. And I took care of him for a year. And did some interim work at two different churches. But after that year they said, my parents said, “You really need to finish this degree.” They finally saw the value of my Oxford education. (laughs) And so I went to Gordon-Conwell to finish up the degree. And rented a room. Here, one of my mentors there, the one who encouraged me to go to Oxford took ill with cancer. And he asked the Dean, “Would you please have Scott Gibson take over for my classes?” So, I took over his classes in 1991 and I stayed there until 2018. So, 27 years later. Yeah. >>Kristen Padilla: Who were some of those people whom God placed in your life to serve as mentors and really shape you, especially I’m thinking these early years but maybe even beyond? Who were some of those people? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, my home church pastor under whom I’d become a Christian – his name was Paul R. [LA-VAN 00:11:55], R for Richard because his wife when she was upset with anybody called that person Doug Richard or Kristen Richard. (laughs) And so they took me in and he nurtured me in the faith. But he left soon after I became a Christian. But he kept in touch with me. So, when I was in seminary, I did two summers of internship with him and I learned the ropes of pastoral ministry with him. It was an incredible experience. His shaping of my life shaped my view towards pastoral ministry. He was an incredible pastor. And so I lived in the church building and they had a gym and a room off to the side and I had dinner with them or with members of the church for two different summers, and of course I was enmeshed in their lives and I was called oftentimes when his wife got upset with me, Scott Richard, it’s not my middle name, but anyway ... I’m glad to have that moniker from him. And we had been in touch for many years and he had a powerful influence on my life. Even as a professor. And then I mentioned about going to Gordon-Conwell and having contact with the admissions director. He then eventually became a faculty member and his name is Ken Swetland. Ken was an incredible mentor to me. He just died a few years ago. And he was the kind of person, like pastor Levan, could ask me the hard kinds of questions. And he nurtured me in being a professor and nurtured me in being an academic. The other person that I can’t ignore talking about is Haddon Robinson. I worked with him for 21 years. And Haddon was a straight shooter and a great lover. I’ll tell you. When I was a new professor and I didn’t really know what to do about getting a car, I was new at this, and I didn’t really know how to buy ... I would buy all my cars off of people and I went to a car dealership and they wanted me to have a loan and I had no idea what to do. Those were some of the things I didn’t get taught at home. And so I talked to Haddon and Haddon said, “How much money do you need?” (laughs) And I said, “Oh, I don’t know, maybe $13,000.” And he said, “Oh, I’ll loan you the money. No interest. Just draw up the contract.” And so I paid him back well before the contract ended, but there’s so many expressions of his grace in everyday life, let alone learning about the field of homiletics from him. So, I am enriched by people who have poured their lives into me. And that means all the world to me. >>Doug Sweeney: Wow. Well, by this point in your life you’ve poured a lot of love and wisdom into many other people’s lives. You’ve been coaching preachers for decades. I don’t want to over-do your age, but you have some experience. (laughter) And while we have you on the show, we want to ask for a little assessment. Where do you think we are, particularly as evangelicals today, when it comes to our preaching? We’ll ask you maybe in a minute what do you think are some of the things we’re doing especially well so we can end on an encouraging note. But before we get there, do you want to kind of lay it on us and offer a little bit of a critique of evangelical preaching in our time? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, I love preaching. I think that preaching is incredibly important. So much so that it makes me think about what are the kuna, what are the difficulties in evangelical homiletics? And it has a lot to do with evangelicalism, but also our wider culture. That is, there’s a real lack of biblical grounding, even in preaching circles. Because preaching then is not so much about what we know about the scripture, but it has so much to do with our own personality and the drivenness of self centeredness. And so preachers are promoted, people are promoted to the place of preacher without really having the background. It seems as if somebody is good at speaking up front then they’re able to preach. And it’s almost a personality over content. And I’m concerned about evangelicalism because that has driven us very strongly to the expense of understanding the bible, the biblical languages, the way in which the languages function and how important that is in developing a sermon that conveys the intention of the text to our listeners. And that’s something that really concerns me. And it’s seen even in other circles in terms of education, where no degrees – it doesn’t matter. (laughs) I remember when I was going off to seminary, I’d finished this degree in vocational education and I told the deacons at my home church that I sensed the Lord calling me to ministry and I want to go to seminary. And they said, “What do you need that for? You have a degree.” I said, “I know a lot about printing, but I don’t know a whole lot about the bible.” And so I committed to going to get the education. That’s not necessarily the case for a lot of people. There’s a great appreciation and desire for the attention on the self, but not attention on the text. And it takes sacrifice and we’ve accommodated, we have online things and all this ... but we’ve accommodated to people to the extent that we really haven’t helped them to see the importance of a thorough going education that has you wrestle with the biblical text, church history, theology, and so forth. So, that’s a big critique because I’m not sure how that’s going to be halted in the current climate in which we find ourselves, but it’s a great concern that I have. Because it effects adversely preaching. >>Doug Sweeney: It sure does. >>Kristen Padilla: So, on the flip side, as Doug has already hinted at, what are we doing right in preaching? Or what has you encouraged regarding preaching within evangelicalism today? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, I’m encouraged by the abundance of resources that are accessible to preachers. Commentaries and such, online or whatever, these kinds of resources that are there. And so that can really help and encourage preachers. If they know how to use these resources and tools. But that’s not always the case, but still, I’m encouraged by that. I’m encouraged by a preponderance of resources like PreachingToday.com. They have a great resource for preachers. Preaching Magazine – encouraging preachers to develop in preaching. I’m also encouraged about the opportunities that are given to people to get academic training in preaching. A number of ThM programs have been developed to focus on preaching. Doctor of Ministry programs. PhD programs. To highlight the importance of homiletics. And I’m encouraged by that. I hope that there will be an increasing appeal of these kinds of resources so that people can take advantage. >>Doug Sweeney: We’ve already noted that you’re a Baptist, Scott. You teach at a school that has a lot of Baptist students in it. So, do I. There are a lot of Baptists in our neck of the woods as well. As you’ve reflected on your Baptist heritage. As you’ve written a little bit about your Baptist heritage. As you’ve worked with Baptist students and preachers ... what do you think? Is there something that Baptists have contributed to preaching ministry today that we ought to point to with a certain amount of gratitude to God? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, I think of course we have different tribes in the Baptist world. And there are some tribes that do better than others in terms of the recognition of the importance of preaching. And the way that is made clear is the preaching courses that are available for students. And that preaching is part of the curriculum. I would prefer at least two courses in preaching, so there can be some strength built there. But some schools just have one and I would love to see them have more. And I’d like to see even other kinds of opportunities for students. But that being said, I think that the Baptist world is making a good contribution to the field of preaching. On different kinds of levels with those kinds of opportunities, academic opportunities. And even these kinds of lectureships and things of that nature highlight the place of preaching. And that’s a good thing. So, that people can see the importance of it. And appreciate what takes place when preaching occurs. >>Kristen Padilla: Going back to the questions we asked you as it relates to some criticisms but encouragement as it relates to preaching, I wonder if we can expand upon that and direct it more toward our listeners who are preparing for ministry or they’re in pastoral ministry. What specific advice can you give them as it relates to their preaching ministry, as it relates to proclaiming scripture with excellence? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, the first thing I would say ... I eluded to it before, but I would say that ... use your biblical languages. Make sure you engage with them. Don’t see them in the rear view mirror. You jumped through that hoop, our educational system tends to be segmented and so once I’m done with that it’s forgotten. But they are all building blocks for what you are being called to do and to be. So, my encouragement is to use the biblical languages, move from the biblical text to the sermon, don’t come to the sermon with an idea that this is what you want to say and find proof texts to do it. But to come from the text. And find preachers who do that. That is, if there preachers you are aware of, whether they’re known or unknown, how do they do what they do in moving from the biblical text to preaching? So, there’s this intersection with the text and the listeners. Haddon Robinson used to say, “When we preach, we want the steel of God’s Word to hit the flint of people’s lives.” And it’s that kind of thing that sometimes is not as easily taught, but if you can caught it and see what other people do, who actually use the biblical languages and it doesn’t mean that they’re snooty or academic. But it’s really that they’re connecting with people. That’s really the thrust I want to encourage them all the more to be committed to engaging with the biblical text in the original languages. >>Doug Sweeney: We want to remind our listeners that you’re here giving our Conger Lectures, our annual Conger Lectures in Biblical Preaching this week. And that we make video recordings of these lectures. And they’re posted on the web. I want to encourage our listeners to tune in and benefit from the entire lectures. But can you give us a little teaser? What have you been saying to us this week that might attract some of these folks listening to us now to the website? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, the theme that I have chosen, the title is “The Preachers’ Character.” And so I preached on Tuesday from Proverbs 6:16-19. And the idea that I was trying to get across there was God can’t stand cracks in our character, because our character can’t stand without God. And it cause I hope a reflective type of moment as we move into the two lectures ... the lectures are The Preacher’s Character. The first one is On Celebrity. And the idea that I’m trying to advance there is today’s preacher cannot avoid engaging with as well as confronting the phenomenon of celebrity. The second lecture then is the Preacher’s Character on Sex. And the idea that I want the listeners to wrestle with is preachers want to gauge their sexual drives and commitments before they engage the culture in which they live. So, I’m focusing on character in these two specific areas where people wrestle ... this is a part of a larger project on which I’ve been working with regard to the preacher’s character. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, thank you for being on the show today. We always like to end these conversations by asking our guests what the Lord has been teaching them personally in their devotional life as a way to edify, encourage, or even challenge our listeners? So, would you mind sharing with us? What has God been doing and teaching you in your devotional life? >>Dr. Gibson: Well, I’ve been very much encouraged by a book by Jerry Bridges called “The Discipline of Grace: God’s Role and Our Role in the Pursuit of Holiness.” This is echoed in my mind, the statement he makes in the book. “Preach the gospel to yourself.” It’s something that we often don’t do. We’re preachers of the gospel (laughs) but we are men and women who have foibles and falls and are in need of forgiveness. In fact, what Bridges says is that the typical evangelical paradigm is that the gospel is for unbelievers and the duties of discipleship is for believers. But the gospel is for believers also. And we must pursue holiness or any other aspect of discipleship in the atmosphere of the gospel. He says we must firmly grasp what the gospel is and what it means in practical terms to preach it to ourselves. And this means for me we are, I am a forgiven sinner. And constantly am in need of being forgiven because of the gospel. Jesus Christ’s life, death, burial, resurrection, and promised return. And I guess that word “preach” we preach the gospel to ourselves, I can’t get away from preaching it. Preaching to others and preaching to myself the gospel. >>Doug Sweeney: What a good word. You have been listening to Dr. Scott Gibson. He is the David E. Garland Professor of Preaching and Director of the PhD Program in Preaching at Truett Seminary, Baylor University. Thank you very much, Dr. Gibson, for this wonderful gift – spending almost the whole week with us here at Beeson. We’re deeply grateful to you for it. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. We remind you that we love you and we’re praying for you. Please pray for the ministries of Beeson Divinity School. Please pray for our dear friend Scott Gibson. We say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.