Beeson Podcast, Episode #651 Dr. Robert Smith Jr. Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, and I am pleased to welcome my dear friend, Dr. Robert Smith Jr. to the studio today. Dr. Smith holds the Charles T. Carter Baptist Chair of Divinity here at Beeson. He teaches preaching, most famously. He’s one of the best known preachers in the country today. He’s also one of the most beloved professors in the history of Beeson Divinity School. He has a new book out and we want to tell you all about it. But before we do, let me welcome Dr. Smith to the program. >>Dr. Smith: Thank you, Dean Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: My friend, thank you for joining us. Remind our listeners before we start, how did the Lord save you from your sin and call you into pastoral and preaching ministry? >>Dr. Smith: The Lord saved me by his grace when I was seven years of age. I responded affirmatively to the gospel. And for the rest of my life now, for some 67 years, I’m trying to comprehend what he did then in terms of doctrine and teaching – it’s so marvelous, it’s so wonderful, and so I’m trying to unpack as best as I can what it means to be justified, sanctified, and one day what it will mean to be glorified. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s wonderful. All right, Dr. Smith, we want to talk about a book that some of our listeners who are friends of yours, friends of the school, Beeson Alumni, have hoped would be coming for a long time now. And has finally arrived. It is called Exalting Jesus in Joshua. And it’s part of the Christ-centered Preaching Exposition Commentary Series. That’s a hard series name to say. But it sounds like a really important one. Before we get into the book itself and how to preach the Book of Joshua, can you tell us just a little bit about this series (Christ-centered Preaching Exposition Commentary Series)? >>Dr. Smith: Well, the editors are David Platt, Danny Acken, and Tony Murita. All three have served as pastors. All three of them believe in Christ-centered preaching. And preaching a whole counsel of God. It’s dedicated to persons who were Christ-centered preachers, biblical preachers, in the persons of Adrian Rogers and John Piper. They are worthy recipients of it. So, it attempts to do that. It sees Christ as the centerpiece of the bible. That Jesus himself even said that things that were written in the Old Testament were written concerning himself. So, he says in Luke 24:27 ... Luke says that Christ on his journey from Jerusalem to Emmaus, a seven mile trip, expounded unto Cleophus and these anonymous disciples that things concerning himself. So, the assumption that we take into looking at all of scriptures, particularly the Old Testament, is that Christ is affirming the fact that whatever was written about him was written in order that he might be revealed as the coming Messiah who was promised by God, who came to save the world. >>Doug Sweeney: I tell you, you talk about Luke 24, the Road to Emmaus – my heart burns within me just thinking about it. I wish I could have been there listening to Jesus himself interpret the scripture in relation to his coming and his ministry. >>Dr. Smith: Exactly. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Dr. Smith, how did the opportunity come about for you to contribute to this fine series? >>Dr. Smith: Dr. Danny Acken who served as the Dean of Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary when I was there, both as a student and as a professor, invited me. He called me one day and asked me to be a part of the series. And I thought about it, I prayed about it, and later on I told him that I would. So, it was by human invitation, but by really divine inspiration. And that invitation has served to ... and he gave me the privilege of selecting the book to write on. And I told him Joshua. (laughs) >>Doug Sweeney: That’s what I was going to ask you about. Did he know how much you loved Joshua? Or is that just one of those providential things? >>Dr. Smith: Providential. And, Dean Sweeney, it was the book that was available. I’m not saying that I was the last choice. But I think as I recall, other books were committed. This was the only un-committed one. >>Doug Sweeney: So, I’ve heard you talk about this and I’ve read you writing about this, but tell our listeners why is the Book of Joshua such an important book of the bible to you? >>Dr. Smith: It is because I see Joshua, the Book of Joshua, as a barometer, a measuring book, a canonical book, canon – measure, of four ascertaining Christological attributes, the person of Christ in the book. I think the Book of Joshua is a micro chasm of the macrocosmic picture of Jesus Christ – and gives those Christological themes. I’ll talk about those perhaps as we go along. But as inheritance and pneumatology – all kinds of doctrine – right there that are at least in seed form that will be developed into full fruit throughout the rest of the bible. Particularly the New Testament. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. So, help our listeners. Particularly the ones who didn’t get to go to seminary and they’re not preachers themselves, and they think, “Well, I love the Book of Joshua, too. I love reading the Old Testament. I wish more preachers would preach sermons from the Old Testament. But when I think about the Book of Joshua, I don’t think about it in the same way. I think about the gospels that are all about Jesus.” So, what does it mean to say the Book of Joshua itself is lifting up Jesus? It’s pointing people to Jesus? >>Dr. Smith: The Book of Joshua, for me, is a “him” book. It’s about Him. Jesus said it’s about him. I wonder if I really believe that on the Emmaus road Jesus probably quotes from the Book of Joshua. I mean, the name Joshua ... his original name was [inaudible 00:07:22]. And Moses renamed him Joshua. Which really means Yahweh is salvation. The name “Jesus” in Matthew 1:21 ... “They shall call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sin.” Synonymously. I think the Book of Joshua speaks about Jesus metaphorically, illustratively, analogically – by necessity and typologically. Let me give an example, for instance. Chapter 24 of the Book of Joshua. You have three significant deaths. Number one, you have Joshua who lived to be 110 years of age. Joshua is a prophetic type. By that I mean the Book of Joshua is the first book in the former prophets, spokesperson. In that chapter, chapter 24, Eliazar is a high priest. He dies. Hmm? And in that chapter there is the death of Joseph, who is a kingly like person. He’s vice or co-regent in Egypt. So, you have prophet, Joshua, priest, Eliazar, king, Joseph. The theocratic office of Jesus. Now he is prophet not because he comes to bring the word. He is the word. He’s the only one who can say “Amen” before he says anything. Everyone else has to say something and then say “amen.” Not him, because he is the amen. He is the word. He’s not only prophet, he’s priest. He doesn’t bring an offering. He is the offering. John the Baptist says in John 1:29, “Behold, the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sin of the world.” And as king, he is not simply a king, he’s the king of kings. He’s the lord of lords. And he cannot be nominated. He cannot be impeached. He cannot be elected. He precedes himself. He continues to be king so that every knee will bow to him and every tongue will confess. That excites me. Just that one chapter – at least metaphorically and typologically is pointing to Jesus Christ. And something that seems insignificant as the death of these three persons. >>Doug Sweeney: That is so wonderful. Why do you think, Dr. Smith, fewer and fewer preachers these days feel confident preaching from the Old Testament? You know, I remember last year I believe it was you preached in chapel from the Book of Joshua on “Have You Been to Gilgal?” And it was a wonderful sermon. My wife, Wilma, and I talk about this a lot. She grew up as a child under a preacher who was a fine Old Testament preacher. And she just longs for more good, solid Old Testament preaching today. Can you give some advice and encouragement to people about the significance of reading the Old Testament, immersing ourselves in the Old Testament? And then for the preachers, the significance of preaching the Old Testament as Christian scripture? >>Dr. Smith: We are not ... we act like it, but we should not emulate him. Marcian who [inaudible 00:11:09] threw overboard the Old Testament. Well, sure there’s some who will call it [texts of terror 00:11:16] but they don’t understand how beautiful terror looks in terms of God being triumphant over what is seen as tragedy but becomes triumph. For instance, I think we read the bible too quickly. And second of all, I think we need to read the bible backwards. I think God wrote the bible this way. Backwards. He started with the epilogue and moved to the prologue. He knew the end, according to Isaiah 46:10. He knows the end before the beginning begins. So, read the bible backwards. Revelation 13:8, “And John saw behind the altar a lamb that looked like it had been slain from the foundation of the world.” Hmm. Acts 2:23-24, “According to the predetermined council of God, Jesus was arrested by the chief priests, scribes, and elders and was crucified, but on the third day he rose again.” Now, that’s what God predetermined before. So, Calvary proceeds the fall of humanity. But when you come forward and just start looking at what God is doing, one, I think it’s important that I understand that for every New Testament doctrine, there is an Old Testament picture. For every New Testament doctrine there is an Old Testament picture. For instance, ecclesiology, the doctrine of the church. The Old Testament picture in the Book of Joshua is this: guess who is in the church? Rahab, the prostitute. She’s also in the Book of Hebrews as a heroine of the faith. She’s in James. She’s justified by works, etc. So, here is a prostitute, second of all she’s a woman. According to Galatians 3:28, “In Christ there is neither male nor female.” So, now you’ve got men, women, they’re not distinguished by their gender. Not only that, but the Gideonites, the survive the 70 year captivity in Babylon and of course they are Hevites and they picture what the church is going to be in Revelation 5:9 and 7:9 – people from every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue will be part of that ecclesiology. Their liturgy. I just think that Rahab, once she got converted, did not go back to the oldest institution in the world, prostitution. Her life changed. Plus, she’s a part of the genealogy of Jesus. Rahab marries Solomon and then they have a son by the name of Boaz, and Boaz has a son by the name of Obad, and Obad has a son by the name of Jesse. And Jesse has a son by the name of David and through David comes Jesus Christ. I just see in the Old Testament just a richness of whatever ... pneumatology. Let me just take one more. Pneumatology. The doctrine of the spirit. Now we know that in the Old Testament the Spirit rested upon people. In the New Testament the Spirit resides not on us but within us permanently. But Numbers 27:18 says that the Spirit, that Joshua was filled with the Spirit. You translate that, transfer that to Jesus, and he is conceived by the Spirit. And the Spirit of God is on Him and He is the Spirit personified, so that the Old Testament Joshua has the Spirit on him, the New Testament Joshua, who is Jesus, has the Spirit within Him and without measure. And it is the Spirit who invites people to come. The church and the bride, the Spirit and the Bride say: come. So, I just see these New Testament doctrines having their birth in the Old Testament as a picture. I must be able to picture what I’m postulating or what I am announcing in the New Testament by doctrine. What does ecclesiology look like? What does pneumatology look like? What does the imageo dei look like? Go back to the Old Testament and you find a picture. >>Doug Sweeney: Those are great pieces of advice for all preachers and bible teachers. Help people to picture the truths of the word of God. >>Dr. Smith: Exactly, Dean. Exactly. >>Doug Sweeney: So, I know a lot of students at Beeson have had assignments in your classes to preach from the Book of Joshua. And now we have a whole book of advice from you about preaching from Joshua. What do you do with the students? Do you give them a method for preaching Joshua? What do you say to preachers about how to handle this book of the bible? >>Dr. Smith: Well, I have what I call a crystal-centric method. I have borrowed, I have reconstructed from notable and credible sources like [inaudible 00:16:48] and Brian Chapel and my own experience in terms of preaching it. I’ve gathered things from my pastors, my reading, et cetera. So, I will say to them, number one, look at the Book of Joshua through the lens of the whole counsel of God. And for me the whole counsel of God is that broad and overarching concept that unites and ties together every passage of scripture so that it relates to the overall plan and comprehensive purpose of God revealed in the scriptures by the Holy Spirit in order to magnify Jesus Christ. So, [inaudible 00:17:35] presence is important. What is God as Father doing? What is the role of the Son? And where is the Holy Spirit? So that we don’t [inaudible 00:17:47] the Trinity. But there are traits and there are characteristics and there are attributes of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit that are present in the Book of Joshua. Look for that so that you are preaching the whole counsel of God. See that God has a purpose in the Book of Joshua. If God permits something and there are things that God permits, he has a purpose to promote. The purpose must always be inextricably related to the permission. God is always faithful. He’s not capricious so that he does things because he just has a certain feeling or he’s in a certain mood. It’s always tied to his purpose, which is revealed in the redemptive drama throughout scripture. So, that’s very important rather than just to get topical and try to relate that topic to something that’s going on in the world. No. What is God’s divine purpose? And how is that purpose not only seen in a miniaturized way in the Book of Joshua, but in a macro way throughout scripture? How does this fit God’s divine purpose? >>Doug Sweeney: You talk about preaching the whole counsel of God in the context of a pastoral ministry. It seems to me that the Book of Joshua is kind of a scary one for some preachers when it comes to preaching it comprehensively. Preaching all of the Book of Joshua. Because there’s these beloved parts of the Book of Joshua. Chapter one, where the Lord is getting Joshua ready to take over for Moses and it’s strengthening him, encouraging him. Chapters three and four, when the Lord is guiding people across the Jordan River to enter the Promised Land. >>Dr. Smith: Yes, sir. >>Doug Sweeney: We love to focus on those for lots of good reasons. >>Dr. Smith: We do! >>Doug Sweeney: It’s harder to preach Joshua when Joshua is defeating the Canaanites. And there’s a lot of military conflict and bloodshed. How do you think we’re supposed to see Joshua whole? And some encouragement for preachers who’d like to just stop with the first part and not get into some of the rest of the Book of Joshua? >>Dr. Smith: (laughs) Yeah, these are difficult texts. Only if they are unrelated to God’s purpose. For instance, in Genesis 15:16, God reveals about 500 years before the time of Moses and Joshua, in fact even more than that ... God says to Abram before his covenantal name, you are going to go into the land of Egypt is what he was saying for 400 years. Why? Because the cup of the Amorites in the land of Canaan is not full yet. The iniquity is not full. I’ve given them 400 years. They’re living in the land and they’re doing detestable things. God gives them 400 years, they’re still doing it. God has promised Abraham it’s going to be his land. When they go to Canaan they evict all of these ‘ites, the Canaanites, the Gergishites, so forth and so on ... they evict them from the land. Why is this detestable? God has given them 400 years. God has been patient. Et cetera. Now you say, “That’s shocking!” All of the people in Jericho are killed. All right, I understand. And therefore for me it is not that God is omnipotent, but he’s not omni-compassionate. He’s both. I compare that ... you say that’s shocking? Whatever God permits God also has a purpose. What is his divine purpose? Not only the land belonging to Canaan but Christ his Son has to be born there in Bethlehem of Judea, Micah 5:2. Now I move away from this because, and move to the New Testament because the bible is profitable but there’s some places in which it is not palatable. It doesn’t taste good. Until you start looking at the whole picture. You think the that crushing and the destroying of these pagans because God had given them 400 years and they had not repented and they continued in their detestable behavior, you move to Jesus. Isaiah 53:10. It pleased the Lord to crush him as a purpose. And then you move on and you hear the statement in Romans 8:32, God spared not his own son but gave him up for us all. Shall he not freely with him give us all things? And you keep working through it. The innocent, perfect lamb of God. God, who became what he was not, human – and yet remained who he is – God. He took our sin upon himself and by vicarious substitutionary atonement he switched places with us. So, that Romans 6:23 has to be seen as a redemptive reversal. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. He got the wages that we deserve. We got the eternal life that he brought. So, that we are saved. So, when I look through the lens of that and I see, my goodness, here were pagans who would not repent, who would not turn to God, et cetera ... and every person has to bear the consequence of their own sin, but we also would be destroyed had it not been for the fact that we have turned to God and God has saved us by his grace, but at the expense of Christ who took our sin upon himself. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a wonderful gospel that you preach from the Book of Joshua. Listeners, let me say the title of this book again, “Exalting Jesus in Joshua.” It’s part of the Christ-centered Preaching Exposition Commentary Series. We encourage you to read it and be encouraged as I have been. I have read it to great personal benefit. Dr. Smith, our time is drawing nigh and as you know, we always like to end these podcast episodes by asking guests what the Lord is teaching you these days? Whether it’s from the Book of Joshua or from something else. What is he doing in your life and teaching you, even after you’ve been walking with him all these many years? >>Dr. Smith: Dean Sweeney, I find myself where Ezekiel was. The hand of the Lord was upon me and carried me out into an open valley, placed me down there and I saw that what he had called me to do was humanly impossible. Son of man, Robert, can these bones live? And my only response is, “Lord, only you know.” And then he calls the four winds from the north, south, east, and west – the [RU-AK 00:25:51], the Spirit, to blow into the situation that I’m dealing with. And through an act of diving human instrumentality the divine bringing in the wind and the human by preaching the Word of God, God brings about a resurrection and he does something that is humanly impossible to do. So, that’s where I find myself. He keeps teaching me – it’s a two hand activity. It’s your hand, but it’s my hand on top of your hand, enabling you ... so, when I’m faced, and I am, I know I can’t do the work at Beeson Divinity School. I know I can’t do the work wherever God sends me. But if I will continue to recognize that his hand is on my hand and giving me the ability to do what I know I can’t do, apart from him, that I get some hope and I know that with God all things are possible. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. You have been listening to Dr. Robert Smith Jr. He is the Charles T. Carter Baptist Chair of Divinity here at Beeson. He teaches preaching, writes about preaching, just finished a book on Joshua that is wonderful. Thank you, Dr. Smith for all your many years of ministry here at Beeson, and for writing this book as well. Thanks for being on the podcast. >>Dr. Smith: Thank you, Dean. I appreciate the opportunity. >>Doug Sweeney: Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Please pick up a copy of this book. More importantly, immerse yourself in the Word of God. Please pray for us. We’re praying for you. We love you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.