Beeson Podcast, Episode #652 Mike Pasquarello & Bradley Edwards Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. I am here today with two beloved members of our community, both of whom are with us to shine a light on Beeson’s certificate in Wesleyan Studies and Beeson’s new relationship with one of the Wesleyan bodies we support from the Divinity School – the Global Methodist Church. Dr. Mike Pasquarello holds the Methodist Chair of Divinity here at Beeson. He directs our Preaching Institute as well. He has served as a pastor for many years, mostly in North Carolina, before becoming a professor. He teaches preaching most famously, but he also writes and teaches about lots of other things – biblical exegesis, historical theology, worship spiritual formation and more. One of Dr. Pasquarello’s and Beeson’s best students is also with us today. His name is Bradley Edwards. Bradley is about to graduate from Beeson Divinity School. He serves as the student minister at Christ Church Birmingham, which is a congregation in the Global Methodist Church. He is the husband to Mary, and father to a beautiful baby boy named, Elijah. We are grateful that both of you, Dr. Pasquarello and Bradley, are with us on the program today. Before we dive into the deep end and discuss Wesleyan Church life, Wesleyan theology, let’s hear just a little bit more about your work and your lives. Would you tell us how you came to faith in Christ and how you felt that the Lord was leading you into full time Christian ministry? And maybe Dr. Pasquarello, we could begin with you? >>Dr. Pasquarello: I’d be glad to. I was raised in a Christian home. And so church was at the very center of our lives and my parents were deeply committed to our local congregation. When I was ten years old we were having family devotions after dinner and my mother invited me to give my life to Christ and I did. Later as a young adult, I had decided to pursue a career in the military. And I was serving as an officer in the United States Marine Corps. But the responsibilities that I had, as you can imagine, immersed me in all kinds of human things and dealing with the messiness of life. And in and through that I sensed the Lord was calling me to leave the military and to go into pastoral ministry. So, I returned to school and went to seminary. I was ordained in the United Methodist Church. And served in the United Methodist Church for almost 20 years in North Carolina. And towards the latter end of that time I did a PhD in Church History. Then I have been a professor ever since. So, I came to the Wesleyan tradition as a young adult. I’m profoundly grateful that I did. And I’ll just say briefly that what drew me in and opened my eyes and warmed my heart was our very rich and strong theology of grace, of a loving God who seeks us out, and this desire is to save us in completely and wholly and to make us full and perfect in Christ through his work in the Holy Spirit. And so I’ve been committed ever since and am grateful to be here and to work with our Wesleyan students. >>Doug Sweeney: What a great way to begin our conversation today. How about you, Bradley? How did you come to faith? How did you get to seminary? How did you decide that the Lord wanted you to go into full time ministry? >>Bradley Edwards: Like Dr. Pasquarello I was raised in a Christian home. At about eleven years old I was diagnosed with brain cancer. It was through that experience that I came to know Jesus Christ and over the years I remember many times saying to my friends, my family – those within my church – the very last thing I want to do with my life is end up in ministry. I will do absolutely anything else other than that. It’s not because I disliked the church. I loved the church. My family and I were in a United Methodist congregation here in Birmingham. And for me, some of my happiest memories as a child took place within the walls of the church. Even before I came to Christ that was the case. Many in my generation have negative experiences in church. I never did. I always had positive experiences. But for some reason I just felt that’s the last thing I wanted to do. But as I grew and my faith matured I reached time to decide what I was going to do after high school and I decided to go to Huntsville and study history. I did a minor in Ancient Medieval History. My plan was actually to do masters work and eventually doctoral work in, believe it or not, Mongolian history. That was the type of history that fascinated me. I did my senior thesis on Mongolian Foreign Policy in the 13th Century. I loved that stuff. History holds a very special place in my heart. Though towards the end of my senior year in college I began to begrudgingly sense the call to ministry. It became clear to me that the Lord had that will for my life. So, when I finally accepted that I gave up on my dream of higher education in history. At least the Mongolian History, as it were. And started looking at seminaries. I was choosing between Asbury and Beeson. I chose Beeson expressly because of the interdenominational ... non denominational, but interdenominational atmosphere. Because I was thoroughly converted to the love of God, as Wesley would say it. But I was not sure where I lined up in my tradition. In many ways, I wanted to kind of leave denominationalism behind because I had seen all the terrible things going on with the United Methodist Church at general conferences. But when I came to Beeson, it was the doctrine of entire sanctification that pulled me back in. >>Doug Sweeney: How about it!? >>Bradley Edwards: The hope and the belief that one day Christ will sanctify us completely. That pulled me back into it all. And now I am thoroughly Wesleyan. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Pasquarello’s proud. Before we move on, Bradley let’s give a little shout out to our friends at Christ Church. We love them, they’re people, they’re new pastor. Tell us just real briefly – what’s your ministry role there? >>Bradley Edwards: Yeah, so I’m the student pastor there at Christ Church and this is actually the church that I grew up at. And so I’ve got a lot of very fond memories of my time there. It’s very surreal for me to be sitting in the youth pastor chair when I often sat on the other side of that, talking to whoever the youth pastor was. And so it’s a very surreal moment for me to be in that office. But it’s a wonderful church family. Our senior pastor, Paul Lawler, was an exceptional pastor. However- >>Doug Sweeney: He is. >>Bradley Edwards: He IS! Not “was,” he IS. He is an exceptional pastor. But he received a call to go up to Memphis to pastor a church there. And my understanding is he’s doing wonderfully there and that church is thriving. And so for a time we had an interim pastor, Jimmy Acox. He has done a wonderful job. An incredible job. It was just announced on April 2nd that our new senior pastor will be Dr. Matt O’Reilly from Hope [inaudible 00:08:41] outside of Montgomery. He should come sometime in June and we’re very excited about that. >>Doug Sweeney: Of course we’ve had Dr. O’Reilly here at Beeson a number of times as well. All right, Dr. Pasquarello, lots of our listeners probably have heard a little bit about the New Global Methodist Church. Maybe some don’t know much about it at all. Should we just ask you to set the stage for us? Tell us where did this church come from? What’s going on in the New Global Methodist Church today? >>Dr. Pasquarello: Well, the Global Methodist Church was officially established on the first of May, 2022. It’s primarily made up of congregations who have decided for doctrinal or moral reasons that they were being led to leave the United Methodist Church. The United Methodist Church has put in place a process called dis-affiliation by which congregations, if they follow the full process, should be able to leave and transfer to another denomination or remain independent if they so choose. And so as of just this past week, I read an update that the Global Methodist Church now comprises approximately 1400 congregations. And that number should increase significantly by the end of 2023. And that there are actually more pastors total than there are congregations. Now how those congregations are distributed around the United States will vary from place to place. More are in the South, the Southeast, maybe the Midwest, and perhaps in New England or the West Coast. But they will be organized according to what Methodist polity has been for a long time into what we call “annual conferences.” Which is similar to a diocese in, say, the Anglican tradition. And they will have presiding elders or bishops, as we refer to them. Some provisional annual conferences are already in place, and that includes here in north Alabama and Bradley will be ordained in the annual conference of north Alabama – the Global Methodist Church – in august. And we’re grateful. He will be our first graduate to do so. The last thing I would add is that the Global Methodist Church extends beyond the United States. There are churches now who are affiliating with them from Europe and Africa and other places. And they will continue to do so. At the heart of their desire to be a church is to not lose what has always been important in Methodism and that is a very strong evangelical missional movement. As John and Charles Wesley said, they had been called in England in the 18th century to spread scriptural holiness, right, throughout the land, the reform the nation and the church. Scriptural holiness is at the heart of Wesleyan theology. And the Global Methodist Church is a desire, like has been expressed in our past history, by newly emerging expressions of Methodism, to recover scriptural holiness – both in thought and in practice and in a very strong evangelical missional way. >>Doug Sweeney: And I’m pleased to say, Beeson Divinity School is one of a small handful of schools that have already been approved as seminaries that can prepare Global Methodist Church clergy. And Dr. Pasquarello, you played a pretty big role in helping us to bring that about. What are a few of the other seminaries that are a part of that list? Asbury, of course, is on that list. >>Dr. Pasquarello: Asbury ... United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio. Truett School of Theology at Baylor University. They have what’s called Methodist House Studies. Wesley Biblical Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi. So far, those are the ones that are approved as recommended seminaries. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s right. Bradley, I’m told ... it didn’t dawn on me until I was getting ready to interview the two of you today, you’re the first Beeson student to graduate with a Wesleyan Certificate? Is that true? >>Bradley Edwards: I believe so. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh, you are special, Bradley! I’m telling you! >>Bradley Edwards: I think it’s because of timing, I don’t think it’s anything other than that. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, in the providence of the Lord ... we’ve had this new Wesleyan Certificate just for a couple of years. So, there wouldn’t be many, although there are others in the pipeline who will follow you. What has it been like to be part of this Wesleyan Certificate program? Kind of help the Dean sell the Wesleyan Certificate program a little bit to potential students and pastors who may be listening. >>Bradley Edwards: You know, I remember when I first came to Beeson. There is a stigma out there that Beeson is a place for Baptists. Now, Baptists have a good home here, but so do many other traditions. And that’s one of the things that drew me to Beeson. And so in my tradition, when someone says, “I’m reformed,” the background that I come out of what they mean is that they came to Christ out of alcohol abuse or drug abuse or perhaps out of prison. And so when I get to Beeson and people start saying, “I’m reformed,” I’m very confused. (laughter) >>Doug Sweeney: You don’t know whether to thank the Lord or to oppose them on matters of doctrine!? >>Bradley Edwards: Yeah, I know. It took me a while to figure out what they meant is, “I’m Calvinist.” So, I love my Calvinist brothers and sisters here greatly. I’ve learned so many wonderful things from them. And when I first came here there was not many Methodist students – at least even Methodist in leaning in their tradition. Over the time that I’ve been here we’ve had a considerable influx in Methodist students, where we can have Wesleyan Fellowship Lunches, where we invite a pastor from the area to come and discuss what it’s like being in a Wesleyan tradition and what ministry is like in that context. It’s been great to spend time with other Wesleyan students here at Beeson and learn from professors like Dr. Pasquarello and Dr. Sterling. >>Doug Sweeney: And they’re not all in the Global Methodist Church, right? We have some United Methodist students, some Nazarenes, who else? Dr. Sterling is African Methodist Episcopal Church. >>Bradley Edwards: Yes. I will jokingly say to some of my dear Anglican friends – they are Wesleyans and just don’t realize it. We have some people out of the Pentecostal tradition, which would also claim Wesleyan. Wonderfully. And so there is an influx of Wesleyan leaning folks that are coming here to Beeson. And it’s been a great experience to study among them and learn from them, learn from their different traditions, and spend time with them in class and outside of class. >>Doug Sweeney: So, Dr. Pasquarello, I’ve got a twofold question for you. One is can you help prospective seminary students who are thinking about Beeson understand from a curricular point of view what they would be in for if they want to be part of our Wesleyan Certificate? And then related to that but secondly could you explain why in your view an interdenominational evangelical seminary like Beeson is actually a good place for Wesleyan students to come? >>Dr. Pasquarello: Sure. I’d be glad to. Thank you. I see as a Wesleyan being at Beeson Divinity School is a major plus in that we’re not all Wesleyan here. We’re interdenominational. And I find that being at an interdenominational setting makes it actually easier for me to be very clear about my Wesleyan convictions and my Wesleyan tradition – not in competition or in opposition to others but in comparison to them. And that is a major strength of Beeson Divinity School, in that we highly value the study of scripture and the great tradition of the Church – as did John and Charles Wesley. There is no doubt about it that we Wesleyans are evangelical. We believe that we’re grounded in the Apostolic faith and witness of the Church, and at the same time that we’re catholic. That doesn’t mean Roman Catholic. But that does mean “of the whole church.” So, this is a rich environment for Wesleyans to experience something of what it was like even with the original Methodists in England where they began as a small group called The Holy Club in Oxford. And in addition to that, we value highly the combination, or the integration of rigorous theological study and spiritual formation. Which once again, I think really characterized the Wesley’s. John Wesley is not known as one of the great systematic theologians of the Church, like other are. He’s not like, say, Karl Barth or John Calvin, yet he had a very strong and keen theological mind and that he was able to integrate, as well as perhaps anyone in the history of the Church, the intellectual life, the moral life, and the spiritual life. And how all they work together in the whole person and in the community together around the lordship of Jesus Christ and through the work of the Holy Spirit. So, we have tried in our Wesleyan Certificate program to create a space for our students to have something of that kind of learning and formative experience that I would say can be distinctively Wesleyan in a setting where it’s respected and valued and encouraged. >>Doug Sweeney: And so in terms of program of study – what do student study if they’re in our Wesleyan track? >>Dr. Pasquarello: We have two required courses in the certificate. Bradley has been in both of them. We do Wesleyan History and Doctrine. And we situate the Wesleyan tradition within the Church of England, but even extend behind that to the medieval and early church with its roots in scripture. And then we go forward to American Methodism and then finally the expansion of Methodism now to be a global church or a global movement, and how it is developed and spread and contextualized itself in a whole variety of settings, while still maintaining a strong commitment to distinctive’s and Wesleyan mission. As Bradley referred to earlier, we meet once a month over lunch after chapel and we just met today. We invite pastors that we know are very strongly committed to the classical teaching of the church, the Trinitarian doctrine, and intentionally live as Wesleyans and work as Wesleyans as pastors. And that kind of informal setting for us I think has been very, very valuable and very helpful. In addition to that, because we’re a school that’s smaller than many others, Wesleyan students know who I am and they know that I’m available and accessible, and we get together individually and we talk about their formation, their growth, the trajectory in ministry, and I do all I can to try to guide them and encourage them in that process. So, I think given the fact that we’ve got this wonderful new beginning with the Global Methodist Church, Beeson Divinity School is a good place to be if you’re a Wesleyan. >>Doug Sweeney: Bradley, for people listening who may consider not only following in your footsteps through the Wesleyan Certificate program at Beeson, but perhaps even into ordination of the Global Methodist Church, tell us a little bit about what that entails? I mean, I know it’s a new denomination, things are just coming together, and you’re one of the early people to seek ordination as a new ordinand in the GMC, but what’s involved in that? How difficult is it and what do you do to be ordained? >>Bradley Edwards: So, I’ll begin by saying that my case is a little bit different than most other people are experiencing right now. Because when I started at Beeson I was encouraged by who was then my pastor, Paul Lawler, to begin the process in the UMC. Now, the big issue there of course was that Beeson was not approved by the UMC and never will be. And so I got as far as I could in the process, about two years into the process, until the education requirement was the only thing that I was lacking. And that is quite a long process. The time I spent in that process to get to the same point in the GMC will take roughly six months. It is a much faster process. As I am getting information myself about people behind me what they need I am passing it along to Dr. Pasquarello so he can have the information for students that are seeking it. Today I got my hands on a candidacy guide book that I also sent to Dr. Pasquarello that lays out the steps very clearly. If someone is interested in this, the first thing that they need to do is make sure they’re a member of a Global Methodist Church and have been for a year or a Global Methodist Church that was once of another denomination, but they need to have been in a member of a congregation for a year. And then they can contact their pastor who will get them in touch with their local board of ordained ministry. As far as the education goes, Beeson was just approved by the GMC, as you’ve stated. I worked to get my credits approved before that happened. So, I had to work with the education team and the GMC and making a case for each of my classes and why they should count for their requirements that they set. And that was about a month and a half to two month process of going back and forth with them. So, I’m very grateful that students behind me won’t have to deal with that. Because that was not an enjoyable experience. >>Doug Sweeney: Thanks for blazing that trail for us, Bradley. >>Bradley Edwards: I’ve got some email chains that are 50 emails long. And so the process is a lot shorter than it is in the UMC. But it keeps the good things. It keeps the greatest things of ensuring that a person is properly trained, properly educated, and that they are properly spiritually formed for the work within the church of ministry. >>Doug Sweeney: So, what are a couple of those good things that they kept? >>Bradley Edwards: A couple of those really good things ... again, are the education requirements. It has been modified to make the route less expensive, shall we say, in some cases. But you end up taking pretty much the same courses – arguably it would be shorter to get an MDIV but there’s an odd place in the UMC where some pastors have half the requirements, some don’t have any. And so there’s a lot of work being done there. But one of the things that I loved about what I experienced about the process in the UMC, and I never intended to be ordained in the UMC because I knew I couldn’t, but my credentials or how far I got transferred over is that the time you had to spend meeting with an elder regularly every single week and reflecting on what call means and what call to ministry is and ensuring that someone is properly prepared for what kind of life that will be, and it’s not just someone decided one day, “Oh, I want to be a pastor, I’m going to go and apply to a church.” It’s a longer process where you’re properly equipped. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. All right, Bradley. We’re going to graduate you in a few weeks here. And kind of send you off into the church. We hope you won’t be a stranger, that you’ll keep coming back a lot. But as you reflect at the end of your Beeson student career on your time at Beeson, what do you think about? Are there any particularly special memories you think you’ll take with you? If somebody who doesn’t know anything about Beeson and is trying to explore seminaries and wants to hear from you about what you liked best about Beeson? What would you say? >>Bradley Edwards: Man, that’s not an easy question. So, if you were to give me my transcript I could point to every class I’ve taken and give you an exceptional experience I had in that class or a nugget that will help me in ministry. So, that’s not a really fair question. But I think if I had to point to one thing ... I spent most of my time here at Beeson working in the media center, kind of on the other side of the podcast. And I think the special experiences that I had at Beeson were the times sitting in the media center with Rob and dear friends and just discussing ministry and how do we really do this? How is this a life that we actually live outside of the classroom? Where do we make that connection? And I think that might be my experience that I take from Beeson. It’s not just the classes, but it’s the community you build while you’re at Beeson as well. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. That’s right. So, thank you, Rob Willis, our faithful media manager who is also a Beeson alumnus and a wonderful minister of the gospel. Bradley, Dr. Pasquarello knows this because he has been on the program before. You know this probably because you have edited Beeson podcast episodes before. We always like to conclude these interviews by asking our guests what the Lord is teaching them these days? What the Lord is doing in their lives these days? So that we can conclude on a note that really edifies those who are listening in a very personal way. So, I ask you, Bradley Edwards, what’s the Lord teaching you these days? >>Bradley Edwards: Hey, I’m in this time in my Beeson curriculum, I’ve got a few weeks left till I graduate. But the final year of Beeson is always we do our supervised ministry practicum’s. Where Lord willing we’re plugged into a church deeply the entire time we’re at school but when we do our supervised ministry practicum’s we really got to be connected into the church and sometimes that’s in the category of an internship. In my case it’s in the category of employment, which I’m very grateful for. And so I’m in this phase where I’m taking what I’ve learned in the classroom and what I’ve learned sitting around with classmates, discussing – and I’m applying it. And I think one of the things that the Lord is teaching me is to not disparage the little moments, because there’s a lot going on in my life and in the life of the Global Methodist Church right now. There’s countless moving pieces and it’s easy to lose track. This past weekend I had the opportunity, I’m grateful for this, to be able to preach on a Sunday morning. We had our confirmation students that have gone through a class, taking vows before the congregation and the congregation taking vows for them. And then the students serve communion. And so logistically this weekend there was a lot of moving pieces. But I got the opportunity ... there was a man in the congregation. He was not physically able to come to the altar to receive communion, and so I got the opportunity to take communion to him. And serve him communion on a one on one basis. And that was perhaps the most special experience I’ve had in a long time. So, I think God is teaching me in this time to pay attention to the things that we think seem small, but we only think it’s small because we’re focused on so many other things and so many moving pieces. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, what a privilege to serve as a minister in the church of Jesus Christ. Well, Dr. Pasquarello, you get the last word. What’s the Lord teaching you these days? >>Dr. Pasquarello: Well, I had an experience this morning I’d like to share in how the Lord just stirred hope in me. Another responsibility I have here is to direct the Doctor of Ministry program. And one of our DMIN students defended his dissertation this morning. He’s a man who spent almost 30 years in the military, retired, and he and his wife discerned that God was calling them to be missionaries to Tanzania. And he’s been there since 2011. And he didn’t go armed with a lot of money and structural support or institutional support. And as Bradley just said, he started very small. And he trusted that the Lord would guide him and direct him and he learned as he went. And how he saw the necessity ... to use his words ... to decrease so that the Tanzanian pastors and churches might increase. And he went not as I come here to help you because I have everything you need, I come here to serve you and help you to seek what God has already given you and what God is already doing. I won’t take time to describe how that ministry has flourished in the formation of networks of pastors, training institutes, bible colleges, but it is now moved to South Sudan and Kenya and even Liberia. And this is a vision that one person had with his wife, prayerfully asking what God wanted them to do, and simply offering what they had. And here in North America, we live in a time where there’s great conflict, including in the church. We hear all the time about the church declining. We lack resources. We lack this, we lack young people who are going into ministry. We talk a lot about what we lack and what we don’t have any more. What we used to have ... And that makes it very easy to lose hope and fall into despair. We may continue to stay in ministry, but our heart is no longer in it because we’ve lost confidence in the promises of God. And the goodness of God. And Jim Larson this morning just in walking us through his project from Tanzania and what he’s experienced there, the Lord just said to me – there’s no reason to lose hope. Especially with it being holy week and us about to celebrate the resurrection of his crucified son and all that that means for creation and for our ultimate future. So, the Lord teaches me a lot through the things I do here as I listen. And I’m thankful. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s wonderful. Listeners, you have been hearing Dr. Mike Pasquarello and Bradley Edwards. And by way of reminder, Dr. Pasquarello serves as the Methodist Chair of Divinity here at Beeson. He directs the DMIN program, as he just mentioned. He directs our Preaching Institute. He’s a busy man. And one of the things he has been busy doing is supervising the studies of Bradley Edwards, who is graduating in just a few weeks. Bradley serves as a minister at Christ Church here in Birmingham, where he will continue to serve after his graduation. Thank you very much, brothers, for helping our listeners understand what it’s like to be a Wesleyan student here at Beeson Divinity School. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Please pray for our Wesleyan students and the churches they are serving and will serve. We love you and we say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.