Beeson Podcast, Episode #655 Wayne & Mary Splawn Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. Today we’ll be talking with two of our favorite alumni, Dr. Wayne and Mary Splawn, who serve the Lord together here in Birmingham. Wayne is Senior Pastor and Mary is Minister of Connections at the Mountain Brook Baptist Church, a short drive from Beeson. We proudly claim them as graduates of the Beeson Class of 2007, and we’re looking forward to hearing about what it’s like for them to do ministry together. Wayne and Mary, welcome to the program. Some of our listeners will remember you from your time together at Beeson, from ministry together in town, but for those who don’t already know you, would you introduce yourselves a little bit? How did you come to know the Lord? How did you get involved in ministry? How did you get to know each other and maybe, Mary, we can start with you? >>Mary: Okay. I’m from a small town, Calpine, South Carolina. And I came to faith in the Lord when I was six years old. My parents are believers and they raised me in the church and they taught me to love the Lord and depend upon Him and to give and serve. One summer during Vacation Bible School, I was learning a lot about the Lord. I came home and talked with my mom one afternoon or one evening about the Lord. And she led me through several scriptures and I gave my heart to the Lord then. I can remember being so excited that I had to call everybody in my family and let them know the news that the Lord had saved me. So, that’s my coming to faith. As far as being in ministry, I have several different moments in time that are significant I think a long the journey. One was when I was in the fourth grade. I went to a camp in the summer called Camp La’Vita for missions. And there was a journeyman missionary there. And she told us about her service. And one evening in the bunks of the camp, I felt the Lord calling me to do the very same thing, to be a journeyman missionary. So, I told my counselor and then when I got home I told my parents and they encouraged me along the way. So, after I graduated from college I then went to be a journeyman missionary in Mexico City. And at the end of my time in Mexico City I was kind of contemplating what is my next step? And I went on a prayer retreat with several other women and felt the Lord prompting me to go to seminary. I’ll let Wayne tell that story a little bit, but we came to Beeson Divinity School after I got back and he got back from another mission service. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. How about you, Wayne? And then we’ll see if we need to make a connection after we hear about your story. >>Wayne: My story is very similar to Mary’s. I’m from a very small town in upstate South Carolina called Chesney. It’s about 15 minutes from Calpine, where Mary is from. I grew up in a loving supportive family, a Christian home. I attended a little small church there called Airwood Baptist Church. I was there all the time growing up. I really think those people there led me to the Lord and raised me and helped me know through RA’s and VBS and just regular worship life of the church. So, that church has a really special place in my heart and sense of life and calling. I actually made a profession of faith through a revival. We would have those annually. And so at this one I really felt convicted of my sin and my need for Christ. And I was very timid as a child, so I did not go forward. Later that night I talked to my mom at home and she made an appointment with the pastor and went in and met with him. Soon thereafter I was baptized. So, really, I give so much credit and so much thankfulness to the Lord for Airwood Baptist Church and the difference they made in my life. Then went to college, got very involved with Campus Crusade for Christ during my college years at USC. Now it’s USC Upstate, but back then it was USC Spartanburg. Kind of tie my story with Mary’s, Mary and I started dating in college. I got involved with Campus Crusade through the young man that was the leader of our Campus Crusade ministry was a Sunday School teacher, or small group leader at the church Mary was attending. So, when Mary told me that she was going to go to Mexico City for two years, I thought it was a really bad thing. (laughter) But it turns out the Lord in His providence used that time in my life in a really powerful way. So, Doug was the campus minister, he took a special interest in me. Really invested in me and discipled me. One summer he challenged me to do a summer project. So, I went to Yellowstone National Park for a summer and did a summer project there. Through that time I felt the sense of leading and calling to do international missions, much like Mary had done. So, I was in the International Service Corps program for a year and a half with the International Mission Board in Capetown. While I was in Capetown, loved doing ministry, felt like God was calling me to do that as my vocation. And I did not grow up thinking that. So, there was a young man, not so young anymore, if he listens to this ... his name is Ronnie Davis. And he was on staff and taught at the seminary there in Capetown. I went to Ronnie and I said, “Ronnie, I think the Lord is calling me to ministry. I think seminary is the next step but I have no idea what that means or where I should go.” And he said, “Well, there’s a really great interdenominational seminary at a historically Baptist college in Birmingham, called Beeson.” So, that’s the first time I heard of Beeson. >>Doug Sweeney: In South Africa. >>Wayne: In South Africa. In Capetown. Yeah. (laughter) So, I started looking it up online and when I came back ... Well, Mary and I were engaged to be married when she came to visit me in South Africa. Moved back. We spent a year ... we thought it would be wise to live on the same continent for a year before we got married. But we visited Beeson and ended up deciding that this was where we thought the Lord was leading us. So, we moved in 2004, just after we were married, moved to Birmingham, started our new life together as students here at Beeson. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. So, you came back to the States, you were married in South Carolina, presumably? >>Wayne: We were. >>Doug Sweeney: And then the two of you moved to Birmingham as a married couple to enroll together at Beeson. >>Wayne: We did. >>Mary: We moved here a week after we were married, in the middle of the summer. >>Wayne: We joke that during our premarital counseling session we had to do a VHS tape back then. Mary’s uncle is a pastor. And he officiated our wedding. So, he sent us a curriculum to go through. And in one of the episodes of the premarital counseling curriculum, the pastor said, “Now don’t do anything drastic in your first year of marriage. Don’t move or start education ...” (laughter) We thought, “We’re just going to do them all.” You know? We’re just going to move, start seminary here at Beeson. But the Lord was just so gracious to us. It wasn’t always easy. Newlyweds living in a one bedroom apartment. We worked together. Went to school together. But the Lord ... just looking back, as I tell my story, the places that the Lord has put us at each point along the way to meet the people that we needed to meet, to kind of put us in that next season of life and ministry is really remarkable to us. And so Ronnie Davis in Capetown was one of those that got us to Beeson. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Well, I want to focus on what it’s like doing ministry together in town. But before we get all the way up to the present, let’s just do a little bit more history, because I want us to talk just a teeny bit about what it’s like as a couple studying together at Beeson Divinity School. You were here before my time. But you’re legendary. So, in 2007 I am told you were together the distinguished students of the year, which is an impressive thing. So, that must mean you did a lot of studying at least while you were married, while you were here at Beeson Divinity School. And you know? More and more these days, there are young married couples who are wondering what it’s like. Can you do seminary together? How does that go? Is that actually good for your marriage? Is it bad for your marriage? So, let’s focus on that just for a second. What was your experience at Beeson like as a young married couple? How did you make it work? And honestly, was it good for your marriage or was it real hard? >>Wayne: I still think back to those years with a lot of fond memories of our time at Beeson. So, one of the things that I think made it bearable for me is that Mary had already enrolled in seminary before we moved here. So, she transferred in credits from a previous place that she was studying. So, that meant that we only ever took one class together. And it was Dr. Ken Matthew’s Hermeneutics class. And the reason that I say that it was good that we didn’t take classes together, Mary is a superior student between the two of us. >>Mary: That is not true! >>Wayne: So, when we moved and we took one class, I remember going up and talking to Dr. Matthews after we had to do this exam where you had to write out the story of the bible and choose what was important and what wasn’t important. And Mary made a half letter grade higher than me. And I went to Dr. Matthews and said, “Can you not give me a half letter grade so I can at least match Mary?” >>Doug Sweeney: Your young male ego was suffering! >>Wayne: It was like, come on! But he just laughed and said, “Well, hers was better than yours.” But after that we didn’t have classes together. I don’t think any other classes together. But I think it helped us to understand and appreciate each other’s life during that time. We were both engaged in seminary. We understood challenges of it. The rigor of it. Also the blessings of community life together. So, I think it was a really strength. And I would say going back to our home churches and our families, they were just so important and helpful to help us make ends meet, to help us ... we worked jobs and we did the whole thing, but it always seemed like at the right time a family member or our home churches would contribute something that we didn’t ask for but just happened. And kind of that community of faith, making that possible. So, we have a lot of fond memories. I can remember being in the apartments over here ... I don’t think they’re any longer there. They were behind the baseball field at the time. For a while we didn’t have a TV. I can remember listening to the World Series one year on the radio. (laughs) But for us I think it was a sweet time of growing and again being able to do it beside each other, understanding what the other was going through during that season. >>Mary: That was one of the most valuable parts to me was the opportunity to dialogue together about what we were learning and we were tracking along together in our studies. We often say that Beeson was the perfect place for us. It was wonderful professors, we loved the student body, but it was a hard season. I think some of it was because we handle stress differently. I was the kind of student that stayed up all night long if I needed to finish something, and Wayne would go to bed and get up at four or five in the morning. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, that’s why you got a half letter grade higher! >>Wayne: That’s right! “I’m going to bed, Mary!” >>Mary: I don’t know. He definitely is an early bird. But we found a church where we found community and our Sunday School class was just really vital during that time. And we loved worshipping with them and we both worked outside of Beeson as well and we found some community there. I look back on those days just with a smile on my face. Really enjoyed our time here. >>Doug Sweeney: All right, so you finished up in 2007 and then very briefly you were involved in college ministry. Is that right? >>Wayne: That’s correct. >>Doug Sweeney: So, how did that go? How does a young married couple who has just gone through seminary together even discern how God is leading ... how did that experience transpire for you? >>Wayne: When I was in seminary I really thought college ministry was what I was going to do out of seminary. So, I did a lot of internships with university ministries, just across the Quad here at Samford. Then toward the end, when we were about to graduate, started going ... I went down to Montgomery to talk to the people at the Baptist Association there. I went to Columbia and talked to the folks there. And the gentleman’s name is Ken Owens. Just made an appointment with him and said I’m interested in college ministry. And at that time there were no jobs available. And I didn’t have the experience probably to be the head campus minister. But there was an internship available at the University of South Carolina in Columbia with the Baptist Collegiate Ministries. And so we took that internship and it was a really wonderful year. We lived ... there’s a ministry center downtown that the Baptist Collegiate Ministry owns. And there’s an apartment in the back. And it was a two bedroom apartment. So, we moved up! >>Doug Sweeney: You were living! >>Wayne: Yeah, we moved up! So, we moved to our apartment there. And it was a wonderful year of ministry. And the way that we got back to Birmingham ... I mentioned earlier seeing the different people that God had placed in our lives. When we were in church at Shades Crest Baptist we were in a Sunday School class that Mary mentioned, was really our community. It really was so vital for us during that time. One of the young men in that class, his father was a music minister. And he was in a meeting of music ministers and the music minister at the time, at Mountain Brook Baptist, was in this meeting and mentioned they were looking for a student pastor. And so he emailed us and said, “I’m not sure what you’re doing. Not sure what you’re interested in. But I know this job is available.” And we had thought that if we weren’t in South Carolina that Birmingham would be a place that we’d like to be. And we spent so many years here and had a community here. So, we ended up applying for that job. Long story short, we ended up moving back to work at Mountain Brook Baptist as student ministers. >>Doug Sweeney: Super. So, Mary, what was all that experience like for you? Probably there are a lot of young women listening who want to know – what was it like being the wife, the female spouse, trying to figure out together with your husband how the Lord is leading and how you’re going to be plugged into what you’re doing? >>Mary: So, I had been working part time with the Women’s Missionary Union on an initiative for young women and it was an online position. And so I could work from anywhere doing that. So, Wayne felt a specific call and I didn’t know what was next for me. And so we decided to go to South Carolina to this position and then once we got there, there was an opening for working with international students within the Baptist Collegiate Ministry. So, I was able to do a little bit with the Women’s Missionary Union and then also with ministry to internationals. And it was such a blessing to experience that, especially since I’d been in Mexico and have a love for international students. And so as Wayne explained, I felt the very same way. It was just a really golden year. We loved our time in South Carolina. But when we were deciding to come back to Birmingham it was kind of funny, because Wayne was like, “There’s this youth ministry position ...” And my first words were, “I thought you wanted to do college ministry!?” Tell them what you said, Wayne. >>Wayne: I don’t know what I said exactly. But my sentiment would be, “Well, we’re about to finish the internship and here’s a job.” (laughter) Desires and circumstances sometimes are ways to discern God’s will or part of it. And in looking back on that, I really didn’t know. Is student ministry the right fit for me or college students, older students? And looking back, we applied and we came and visited and we met the people, and this is the only church we’ve ever served. I mean, we’ve only ever worked at Mountain Brook Baptist Church in full time vocational ministry. So, I have nothing to compare it to. But it’s been the perfect place for us over the years. They’ve been so gracious to allow us to grow and develop as ministers in a really safe and encouraging community of faith. And so again you look back and you are always trying to understand, Lord, what’s the next right step you would have us to make? And it’s not always crystal clear. And you step out in faith and I remember us loading up our UHAUL and our parents coming to go with us to help us move. And moving down here, moving our stuff in, and just thinking, “Is this the right next step?” And our pastor at the time was Dr. Jim Mobies and he had a funny ... he said, “You know? You really won’t know for about three or four months if you think you made the right decision.” (laughs) I’m looking for comfort in that when we came. Now all these years later, it will be 15 years this summer, we’ve been at the same church. And we just know that it was the right decision and the Lord was just so gracious to us. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s segue to the next thing I wanted to ask both of you about that’ll be interesting to a lot of ministry minded listeners. And that is so over the years, what has the array of roles been like that you played in the church? And it’s interesting, isn’t it, that you’ve done all those different things individually and together and that culminated, Wayne, in you becoming the Senior Pastor of the church. More often than not, when churches go looking for a new Senior Pastor, they look outside the church. But in your case, they were delighted to ask you as somebody they knew very well and had been there a very long time to assume the role. How did all of that work for you? So, that’s complicated, but ... Part A, what kind of different roles have you played over the years? And then Part B, what’s it like to go from playing all of those different roles to all of a sudden being the Senior Pastor of the church? >>Wayne: Yeah. So, I’ve worked in student ministry, so for six years I was the minister of senior high and college students. And Mary was minister of junior high students and over the Christian Life Center. And that six years was great. We were surrounded by a lot of wonderful people who wanted to see the youth ministry succeed. So tons of families, great support from our pastor, the students were great. And when we moved here there was this remarkable group of seventh graders that we inherited. Kind of joke, it being a five star recruiting class that we had just there. And that class was particularly strong. And remained pretty faithful and together until they graduated. So, in our community the junior high is 7-9th and the high school is 10-12. So, we were able to see one class all the way through junior high and high school. And we kind of graduated with them to different roles. I became associate minister at the church. And that role began to get a little more responsibility as it related to being the staff liaison with the missions committee. Starting to attend personnel committee meetings, finance committee meetings. Getting a little bit more working knowledge of that side of the church, which has been really invaluable to me to be able to see all of those different things. And then when Dr. Doug Dorch announced his retirement in March of 2021, knew they would be in a process. And the church took a very intentional approach to how they were going to search for the next pastor. I applied as one of the candidates and went through the entire process. And at the end of the process they identified me as the candidate to propose to the congregation as the pastor. That was a unique experience to put your name in as a staff member. But throughout the process as I was being interviewed and going through the different steps of discernment could tell the search committee and could tell others very sincerely that if it didn’t work out or they didn’t think I was the right person then I would be on board with what they thought God was leading ... because if I had left the church that day I would leave much more enriched than when I came. I’ll never be able to repay Mountain Brook Baptist Church for all that they’ve done for me. The way that they’ve helped my kids grow and know the Lord and love the Lord, they love being church kids. And so it was an easy process to go through from the standpoint of I really felt like the Lord would make clear who the next pastor should be. And it would be a time of discernment for the church, a time of discernment for me to kind of figure out next steps, and so really grateful that they entrusted me with this position. And really love being a part of Mountain Brook Baptist Church and hope I can be for a long time. So, Mary has done lots of things. Why don’t you talk about what you’ve done? >>Mary: Well, let me back up. When we decided that we probably needed to transition out of youth ministry we had had our second child. And we started realizing that we were spending lots of time with our kids in childcare while we were working with the youth. Our first born son, he kind of came along as the mascot with the youth group. Then when we had Eleanor we needed more care. And so the church was so kind to us to allow us to transition into other roles. And so when Wayne became the Associate Minister, I transitioned to a new position called the Minister of Connections. And this is just kind of like an umbrella term for several different things that I do. Women’s Ministry and then I work with New Members, trying to integrate them into the life of the church. Wayne mentioned earlier the Christian Life Center. I have overseen that over the years. And then now a couple of years ago started a podcast for our congregation called The Project 119. It’s just a bible reading plan podcast. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, wonderful! So, there are a lot of women who are involved in seminary communities as the spouses of male students. Of course there’s other women who are seminary students themselves. But oftentimes we find that the wives of the male students spend the seminary years just sort of imagining what it’s like being the wife of a pastor. In your case, Mary, I’m fascinated to know, not just what it’s like being Wayne’s wife, but even more interestingly in your case, what’s it like being somebody who’s been on staff of this church for a long time that you husband now serves as the senior pastor of? Of course I don’t want you to say, if there’s anything negative, we don’t want to hear about it, right? Because probably your church people are listening. But what’s the experience like? What advice do you have for other women who are thinking about this? I would imagine there’s blessings and things that aren’t so great a blessings. But what would some of the blessings be of being on the staff of a church that your husband is serving as senior pastor? >>Mary: I hope I can do this question justice. Because there’s lots swirling around in my head. But first, I just want to say it’s such a gift to serve and to work together. Wayne and I have so enjoyed being able to work together. And we don’t, I hope we don’t take that gift for granted. And being a pastor’s wife is kind of a new role for me. In some ways, and in other ways it’s not so much new. I feel like Mountain Brook Baptist is a family to me, for 15 years this summer we’ve been a part of Mountain Brook Baptist. So, I know these people and their families and I love the people of Mountain Brook Baptist so very much. And so it’s been such a gift for me I think to incrementally get to know the congregation over the years so that as the pastor’s wife I already have this knowledge of a lot of people and about their stories. I have seen them, as Wayne alluded to earlier, be so generous with me personally and with my family. And so that’s been such a gift. I think that God has given Wayne and me a similar disposition in that we love people. We love being around people. We’re energized by fellowship. And so I enjoy a lot of the things you would typically think were a pastor wife’s role. I love hospitality. Although I’m not very good at it, and that could be something I’ve learned along the years. Some different ways that people around me have equipped me and helped me to learn how to be more hospitable. And I love getting to know new people. I love serving the Lord together. >>Wayne: Yeah, and we’ve always worked across the hall from each other. Until I became the pastor then I moved down the hall. But we don’t know any other working arrangement. We’ve always worked together. And so I think that Mary is right. We both are the same enough that it works. We have the same convictions, same disposition, same love for the church. So, that really helps us. But we’re not the same people. And sometimes the challenges are that Mary and I don’t see everything exactly the same way. Or a decision or where we should go or how we should look at something in the church. And so I think some of the challenges sometimes are if we are kind of hashing something out or figuring out the right way, Mary’s gracious to be able to disagree but be on board and supportive. And so that’s kind of an interesting work relationship that she and I have. But I think the strength of it is Mary being involved in church ministry means that it doesn’t feel like it’s an add-on to her. So, doing things like having people over to the house, or doing drop-ins at Christmastime and inviting any of the ladies of the church who want to come to come by. All of that stuff, being a part of who she is and a part of our love for the church, helps us to not feel like our lives are as fragmented maybe as they would be if Mary wasn’t on staff at the church. >>Mary: One more gift of being in ministry together ... Wayne and I have the opportunity often to do premarital counseling together. And Wayne leads out but every time we go through premarital counseling, it’s like, man, I needed that. I needed to be reminded of effective ways to communicate with one another. And so as we are co-laboring, the Lord is again and again teaching us, helping us, hopefully molding me into a better wife. Wayne: Yeah, we love to do premarital counseling and we love to have couples in our home at least for one of the sessions. And have dinner with our family. And then afterwards we’ll have the premarital counseling session. And just this past week we were doing one and I encouraged the couple. I said, you should just keep this book on your bookshelf somewhere at home and once a year you should go through this. Just as a reminder of the things that are important. Because I feel like I get to go through marriage counseling multiple times a year. Sometimes you’re telling the husband or the wife, “Communication is important.” And in the background I’m thinking about, oh yeah, I need to remember this in my- >>Mary: About that fight we had before ... >>Wayne: Right. This is very applicable and pertinent to me. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Well, the other big thing I wanted to ask the two of you about in particular has to do with what it’s like for people who grew up like you grew up doing ministry in Mountain Brook. People from Birmingham know Mountain Brook has a lot of kind of high powered business and professional people who live there. And your stories make it sound like you grew up in very different sorts of environments, sort of small town in South Carolina. Has that been a big learning curve? How have you learned to care well for people whose daily lives are just different than the ones that you grew up with? >>Wayne: Yeah. It’s funny that you ask that question because when we were in seminary we never, to my knowledge I never attended Mountain Brook Baptist or never went there. >>Mary: We came to the gym one time for a basketball game. >>Wayne: Okay. That’s it, maybe. And so I think one of the blessings of us and our relationship with Mountain Brook Baptist and other people, some of the people that belong to our church from affluent communities is that when we moved in we didn’t know anybody. We didn’t know any last names. We didn’t know who was who. And what we found in our church was that this was a warm community of faith. People who had a sincere love for the Lord and who were trying to live for Him. And I think that outsider’s perspective really was beneficial to us. That we just ... and we still try to treat everybody the same way, with sincerity and kindness. And we have found the people at Mountain Brook Baptist church just to be the warmest, kindest people. And we recently had an event at our church where “Discover Mountain Brook Baptist” and so we invited people who had been visiting a lot recently and who are considering membership at the church to come. And I said, “Let me just talk about the church. We’re Mountain Brook.” And so to some people that’s a baggage that they come with, or there’s assumptions of what people are like at Mountain Brook. I said, but almost to a person, the people who come here and visit and actually engage with real people find just the warmest community, the most sincere, and they are surprised sometimes by the diversity that we have in our community of faith. People from lots of different walks of life find their way at Mountain Brook Baptist. And we really at times have a very small town church feel. We’re a community church in a lot of ways. We draw from the greater Birmingham area, but you could come to a fall festival, you could come to a trunk or treat or an end of summer social and experience in the parking lot much like what you would experience at a smaller community church somewhere. And then I talked about being Baptist and all the baggage being Mountain Brook Baptist. But again I couldn’t be ... and I tell the people this I hope enough, more proud to be their pastor. And count it more of a privilege to serve at Mountain Brook Baptist Church. The quality of people that we have, sincerity of ministry in our community, and so even as I think about if someone were to ask me, “I’m looking at this church and I’m thinking about being the pastor there or applying to be the pastor, what would you encourage me to do?” And I would encourage them to find out as much as they could about the leadership of the church. What type of lay leaders are involved in the church and what’s their overall commitment to the life of the church? Because that’s one thing that we have that’s a real blessing at Mountain Brook Baptist is a dedicated group of leaders who are very involved and very invested in the life of the church. And I really do think you would find if you visited and participated – no matter what you’re interests are, no matter what your background is, that you would find a place and you would find a people who really are warm and trying to help connect you with other people in the life of the church and ultimately to Christ. So, that’s kind of ... again, one of the wonderful things about me being from South Carolina and coming into the life of the church is that as is often the case when people have a stereotype of what a person is like, based on where they’re from or what they do, I was able to come in and not work on a stereotype but work on the reality of who people are. And it was just ... and continues to be so life-giving for us. >>Doug Sweeney: We always like to end these interviews by asking folks what the Lord is doing in their lives these days. And we could ask you that as a couple, we could ask you that individually, but maybe Mary, I’ll turn to you, first, and see what your instinct there is. Is the Lord teaching you something special these days? What’s going on in your life spiritually right now? >>Mary: Just reminded in these days of the brevity of life and the Lord just reminded me that he has called me to live today for Him. And as a perfectionist kind of type personality I struggle with thinking, well, I’m never enough. And that could either lead us to despair or to a proper sense of dependence upon the Lord and so I’m just sitting right now in the season of realizing I’m finite and I’m flawed and I do fail. But the Lord is faithful even in the midst of my not being enough. He is enough. And He calls me to a life of dependence upon Him. So, I’ve been meditating on that in recent days. >>Wayne: Yeah, we’re going through the Sermon on the Mount on Sunday morning in our sermon series. And one of the things that I’ve been learning as I’ve been preparing for sermons and then also just applying it to my own life is the sincerity with which the Lord desires for us to come before Him, as children coming to their heavenly Father. And not ... when Jesus teaches about the Lord’s Prayer, it’s not about a lot of words, it’s not about going through the motions, or being religious, so to speak, but just sharing your heart with the Lord. And so I’m learning a lot about that. And then also in church ministry, ministry and leading with conviction and trusting that a lot of the things that I learned here at Beeson are true. And relying upon the Lord and not being pulled too much by maybe worldly wisdom or tactics or marketing and saying, you know, “Lord, we get in all of these different situations. Help me to trust that you’re enough. Help me to trust that you will provide. And to do ministry with integrity and faithfulness and trust that the Lord will bless that.” Doug Sweeney: That is great advice. You have been listening to Wayne and Mary Splawn. They are alums of Beeson Divinity School. I am proud to say. They also serve the Lord together at Mountain Brook Baptist Church. We’re very grateful for this gift of time on their part. They just had to drive across town, but this is a busy day in ministry for both of them. So, thank you, Wayne and Mary, for being with us. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. We love you and are praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.