Beeson Podcast, Episode #656 Jacob Simmons Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. And today we’ll be talking with one of my favorite pastors, the Reverend Jacob Simmons. Jacob is the pastor of Hope Community Church – right here in Birmingham. He and his wife, Suzanne, are beloved Beeson graduates. Jacob is working on a PhD currently at Midwestern Seminary in which he is writing a dissertation on Improvisational Preaching, building on his many years of work, or rather play, in improvisational comedy. He’s thought more deeply on this subject than anyone I know. And I thought you’d like to hear him talk about it. So, Pastor Simmons, my friend, welcome to the Beeson Podcast. >>Simmons: Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Sweeney. It’s a real pleasure. Thank you. >>Doug Sweeney: So, a lot of people listening to this episode will know who you are, but a lot of people won’t. So, tell us just a little bit about who you are, how you came to faith in Christ, and how you got involved in pastoral ministry? >>Simmons: Yeah. Thank you. My name is Jacob Simmons. I’m originally from Hendersonville, Tennessee, which is just north of Nashville. I was raised in a Christian family and really at a young age fell in love with the church. You have your school friends and your church friends, and I probably always liked my church friends a little more. So, I loved the church and loved all that happened there. The Lord called me to ministry at a young age. I put my faith in Jesus at Vacation Bible School at the age of nine. I had been talking to my parents about that decision a little bit before. “When you’re ready. When you’re ready.” I went down front. I was ready. And was raised and discipled by that church, the First Baptist Church Hendersonville, which is a large church just north of Nashville. But it’s a home for me. Then on a mission trip at the age of 14 I felt a call to ministry. Of course, I couldn’t have articulated it at that time, but leading bible studies and going on mission trips and all of the activities – I just loved it. I thought this is the best job in the world. I want to do this. I had a dear friend and mentor – he was my middle school minister at the time. He now works for the Tennessee Baptist Foundation – Todd Tanner. He really poured into me and discipled me and talked to me about what a career in ministry looked like. We talked last week. We still talk once a month. He’s a dear friend. So, 14 is pretty early to experience ministerial calling, but it was one that I felt strongly at that time and I had been confirmed repeatedly through the rest of my high school and college years. So, I came down to Samford and applied to join Beeson on the last day that I was eligible at the time. I had procrastinated. I didn’t mean to. But I had been advised and honestly didn’t look anywhere else. And Beeson was just perfect for me. So, I spent three years here at Beeson. I actually did the MDIV / MBA program, if anybody out there, incoming students or current students, it’s a great program. You get the two degrees and you only have to do a few extra credit hours if you come in with a business degree like I had done. But loved it and loved my time here. You mentioned that Suzanne and I were both here – we were not a couple at the time. I wanted us to be a couple, but she had some second thoughts. So, it’s pretty cool now because we both had the Samford and the Beeson experience, but not together. And now we both can support and celebrate that. Yeah, she’s just the best. >>Doug Sweeney: How did you finally win her over? >>Simmons: Through a lot of prayer. It was slow and steady and I’m just delighted that we’re together. >>Doug Sweeney: The last few years you’ve been serving as Pastor of Hope Community Church here in town. A church I got to preach in not too long ago. I had a great time with all of you. Tell us a little bit about your church, its history, and what you’re working on – what God is doing at Hope Community Church these days. >>Simmons: So, Hope Community Church is the former McElwain Baptist Church. McElwain was around for 125 years. In 1895 and outskirts of Birmingham a group bonded together and in the last Sunday in December formed a church that was called McElwain, which was named after the community at the time. And they had been a growing/thriving church in the ‘50s and ‘60s. They were a really large church in the area. They built this big building to match their size. But since the ‘80s and ‘90s there has been a slow and steady decline. They were not a dying church in the past couple of years. A dying church is ten people, barely keeping the lights on. It was still a group of 100 people, but down from 1200 at its height. It’s a declining church, but they were not dying necessarily. But they knew something different needed to happen. The neighborhood that we’re in is Birmingham City. So, the schools are zoned for city schools. But the people who live there, Wayne and Mary Splawn who are Beeson friends and pastors in the area, they describe the neighborhood as newlyweds and nearly deads. And that is pretty accurate. People who have been there for a long time or it’s people who are buying starter homes who don’t yet have kids in school age. And so the church only reflected one of those demographics. It was a church of senior adults and people who had been there for a long time. And they wanted to find a way to reach the community again. So, they actually reached out to Shades Mountain Baptist Church, which was my church. And Samford, and while I was here at Beeson, and I had been working on staff for about six years serving the single adults and minister of single adults and pastoral care was my role. I had been praying about being a senior pastor. I knew that’s where I wanted to go. It’s what I’d been trained for. It’s where my passions were. And at the time McElwain reached out to ... the pastor was Danny Wood at the time, reached out to Shades, and they were really interested and they shoulder tapped me and I didn’t have to pray long before realizing this is a great fit for us. So, for two and a half years we’ve been in the work of church revitalization. We changed the name from McElwain to Hope Community Church. But we’re building on the 125 year legacy of faithful gospel witness in East Birmingham. And I am so excited to be a part of the work of revitalization. I think it is the next wave of ... church planting was very en vogue when I was in seminary. And thereafter. And I don’t know that you’ll ever reach a saturation point for church planting. But to come alongside that, some of these churches that have buildings and resources and history and people to build on top of those with a renewed vision, I have been so excited and loved being a part of it. You get to be a planter with creative, thoughtful ideas, engaging with the community. But from the jump you get to be a pastor as well; caring for people, loving them, getting to preach, getting to shepherd, and all the things that I’ve really wanted to do and been prepared to do. We’ve gotten to do. And I love it. I really do. And I’m so appreciative for the work that we’re doing. >>Doug Sweeney: So am I. Well, as I said at the top of the show, I’m eager to talk with you about improvisational preaching. >>Simmons: I love that you call it a show, just going right to my improv instinct. Yes, it’s a show. That’s exactly what it is. >>Doug Sweeney: I’m setting you up here. And there’s lots to talk about. And you know about this way better than me. I don’t have many gifts as an improviser but maybe you’ll challenge me today in ways that will help me move forward. I’m thinking right now about our listeners, though. Before we talk about what improvisational preaching is with them, I think they need to know a little bit about what improvisation is in general. About your experience as an improv comedian. I mean, you’re such an unusual pastor bringing all these things together. >>Simmons: Not many people in my lane. Yeah. The corner is lonely. There’s not a lot of improvisational performers who also serve as pastors. Now, there are a few. And they’re wonderful people. But I got ... of course everybody knows improv from Whose Line Is It Anyway? The show was on ABC for a while with Drew Carey. And started in England and then America adapted it. Seems to be the pattern in a lot of things. But I remember watching that show as a high schooler with my mom and we’d just laugh and laugh. And that as an art form had developed through the years. It really started in your neck of the woods, back in Chicago. It takes a good Midwesterner to appreciate improv. So, this is why ... So, the compass players out of St. Louis and then Chicago, Mike Nichols and Elaine May, they started this art form based on the idea being there is these theater games. Like, hey, let’s warm up and just play some games. And they find themselves just laughing at these games. This doesn’t have to be a warm up, we could put on a show with this. Smart, creative people. Of course Nichols and May became a Broadway show of them doing the sketches and improv and they went on to huge careers. But that idea stuck around in Chicago and became the Second City and then of course they had one in Toronto as well. And it becomes a who’s who of performers, comedic performers especially, over the past 30 and 40 years. And some thought in Chicago at the Second City that improvisation is an exercise to write good sketches. Saturday Night Live, Second City TV. And then some thought it can be an art form all its own. And that’s where a guy named Del Close came on the scene and he was working at Second City and helped start a theater called the IO, which is where I was. It was formally the Improv Olympic and then they got sued by the Olympics and so they had to shorten it to IO. But the idea is that you can create with other performers under everybody following the same rules, these same guidelines, and within these guidelines and rules you can create something beautiful and funny and engaging and entertaining right before your eyes. And then some would write it down and try to perfect it and take it on the road, and then some say let’s let that be exactly what it is, and it’s this art where we are creating and we are giving to the audience, and then the next night we’ll do it again but with a different suggestion and with different ideas. And so it’s been around for probably since late ‘50s and ‘60s. It’s really been codified and kind of written down only in the past 20 years or so. It’s a relatively new art form. But everybody in pop culture has seen its effects because it’s a who’s who of people who have gone through these schools and these institutions. In Chicago it’s Second City and IO and in New York it’s the UCB and the Upright Citizens Brigade. Of course in LA there was the Groundlings for a long, long time. And everybody knows Tina Fey and Tim Meadows and Chris Farley and all these people that came through these schools that we’ve just laughed at for years. So, when I was in seminary I got back into theater. I had done some as a kid and done some in high school. And I did a show in town and then I did one on campus. And then there was a group in town called ETC (Extemporaneous Theater Company) that did short form improv. Short form improv is what you see on Who’s Line Is It Anyway? It’s a game with heavy rules like the alphabet game or freeze tag or party quirks. These games that you’ve seen before. And then they get a laugh and you’re done with those. But I auditioned my last semester of seminary. I auditioned for the group and I made it and I loved it. Just right away. Like a fish to water. Not saying I was any good, but I just knew I really enjoyed these theater people and this challenge. And started to really jump right in. Shortly thereafter I had moved to London and back to Birmingham and then I moved to Chicago to learn more about improv because I loved it so much. But through the classes and the learning and also serving at a church in Chicago at the time, I started to think there’s a whole lot of overlap here – of what you do on stage as an improviser and what you want to do in the pulpit as a preacher. It’s not one for one, but there’s just a lot of overlap there. >>Doug Sweeney: All right, so before we get to the overlap – an old fashioned guy like me needs to know ... you’ve referred to rules and ideas and thing. I’m eager to know more from you about ... What is the method when you’re doing ... Not improvisational preaching, just improv comedy? Is there any preparation? Are there guidelines? Are there things that you bear in mind? Or is it utter extemporating? >>Simmons: That’s a great question. It would be good to borrow from another medium that’s practiced in improvisation and that would be jazz music. So, jazz improvisation has to have rules. You’ve got to know key, time signature, scales, chords ... you’ve got to know all those rules and you’ve really got to master those roles to then be able to get with a group of people that you don’t know and improvise. The best concert I ever saw was by a guy named John Baptiste and he is the musical director for Stephen Colbert’s Late Show. And I saw him and his band get with two musicians and improvise and they’re making each other laugh. And it’s the best music you’ve ever heard and it’s all in the moment and they could never re-create it again. But they’re experts in their craft. There’s rules in place. The foundational rule of improvisational theater is yes/and. Yes/And. And the idea is that two people in a scene, by following the rules of yes/and. Basically, anything you say is now, to borrow a phrase from the church, is now canon, is now gospel. Right? If someone says, “Hey, dad!” That means we know the character who was just addressed is “dad.” And the character who just spoke is a son or daughter. And so the other one says, “Uh, well, hello, son.” Well, now we know. It’s those kinds of things, just by using lines on stage, you have to agree with what they said. That’s the “yes.” So, the “yes” is I agree with what you’ve said. Maybe my character doesn’t agree with your character, but you and I as performers, we agree with one another that there is now a father and a son in this scene. And the “and” comes from responding with something new. So, if you say “Hey, dad!” And I say, “Hey, son.” That is the agreeing and now adding to it. You’re the son. And then the person comes in with whatever else they want to say based on the suggestion, what they’re feeling, who their character is. But that is the foundational rule. And so I break that down a little further to help with improvisational preaching. I think the rules can be codified as listening, agreeing, and building. Listening is listening to what the other character or the other performer is saying and doing. And we don’t just listen with our ears. We do certainly do that, but also are they timid? Are they shy? Are they bold? All of those things that somebody comes on stage with is going to inform their character and give you more information about how to engage them. And then agreeing, which we spoke with ... everything they’re saying or doing, they are saying or doing, we have to validate that and justify it and agree to it. And the last one is building. Building on top of it. So, the idea is line by line, kind of looks like brick by brick, as you build and create a whole scene. So, those are the foundational rules of improv. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. So, I am probably, most people listening to this episode also think of ourselves as orthodox Christians. And we’re starting to wonder – how is this going to translate into preaching? Because for most preachers, like you and me, our working assumption is that we’re delivering not our own message here ... we’re not sort of just doing yes/and no matter what comes up on Sunday morning. We’re delivering a word from the Lord, sort of revealed supernaturally in scripture. So, how does the yes/and and the improv translate into preaching of that sort? >>Simmons: Sure. You should know that I’ve not finished this dissertation yet. So, please push back. Because there’s a lot of things to flesh out here. But I do think in the preaching moment what it is ideally seeking is a genuine connection with the audience so that you, the preacher, who have connected with God through the Word and through the Holy Spirit, can connect with the people so that they can connect with God through the Word and through the Holy Spirit. So, improvisational preaching, it happens in the pulpit but I would actually argue it happens in the study. It happens in our spiritual lives. And it happens in the moment. So, really, we’re improvising with the text. We’re improvising with the Spirit. And we’re improvising with the people. So, improvising with the text looks like our hermeneutics. We’re listening and agreeing and building with the Word of God. Now, that’s going to look a little different because certainly we’re listening to the Word of God as we study it. And we’re agreeing that it is authoritative. And that’s one of the caveats of this is that we have to have a very high view of scripture in order for this to meet all of our checklists of orthodoxy as you’ve brought up. If we’re not submitting to the Word of God we don’t get to yes/and with God’s Word with our own ideas. But we do, in our hermeneutics and our study of God’s Word, we do bring our full selves to that and see what Hans George Gatimer called “the fusion of two horizons,” of this understanding of God’s Word in its historical context. And our current present context. Where it changes all the time, but the Word of God still speaks directly to us at that ever-changing moment. So, really we’re improvising. We’re not adding to it, but we’re letting it add to us and we’re bringing our full circumstance to God’s Word and let it speak into our character. Hopefully walking away transformed with a new perspective of God’s Word and a new understanding of what God would have us to do. So, then we take that into our spiritual lives and we understand in our work with the Holy Spirit how we’re yes/and’ing there and I think most orthodox Christians who have an active spiritual life know a bit of the improvisation with the Holy Spirit. “I told God I didn’t want to do that and God had something to say about it.” And the prayer life of the back and forth. All of those things are very real. And we do have an understanding of the improvisational nature of improvising with the Spirit. But in the preaching moment, I would not argue that improvisational preaching is pure ex nihilo preaching, just out of nothing. No, no, it’s not making things up. Dr. Smith would say in his book, improvisation is spontaneity infused with preparedness. You fill yourselves up with God’s Word because you’ve had this experience in your study. You’ve had this experience with the Holy Spirit so that then you can go and be free. And willing to create and explore in the preaching moment with the guidelines of what you’ve already done in your study ahead of time. And this is really what Dr. Smith prepared us to do and taught us. For me, when he learned that I was doing some theater he says, “Well, you’re not going to get to have notes when you preach.” He said, “If you’ll memorize your lines then you’ll memorize your sermon.” And that first sermon I did I had to memorize and I look back now and it’s like I was pretty close to exact memorization. I probably was not improvisationally preaching in the moment. But I had internalized and I was just reciting. The same idea goes with internalizing our sermons and being so prepared that we do feel pretty free in the pulpit. That’s kind of the sweet spot. So that when things come to mind, and I think any preacher would say, yeah, things come to mind, something shifted in the moment. I thought about that one person specifically in the moment that I had not thought about in the study and I just added a few sentences or a paragraph based on what I knew they were going through and I didn’t think about it ahead of time. That’s very real. And those are powerful moments that you can’t prepare for. But you can be prepared for if you have an improvisational homiletic. And preparedness to go off script, if that makes sense. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. So, the spontaneity in relation to listening for the preacher has a lot to do with listening to the people God has given you to serve so that whether or not you thought ahead of time about addressing something in a sermon, as you’re with your people and you’re looking at them in a sense metaphorically listening to what they’re saying to you, you’re ready to improvise things that add value to the sermon, that weren’t prepared. >>Simmons: Absolutely. Listening comes in all arenas. The one thing if I can impart onto any listeners or people I talk to about this it’s the importance of listening. Good listening is good pastoring. And so oftentimes when we’re thinking and preparing our sermons and we’re thinking about our people, the people and what do I need to hear from this, what do they need to know? What wrongs do I need to right? What hope do I need to speak to? What correction needs to be made? We’re just thinking about our people all the time. That’s listening. That’s the long listening of pastoring that we bring to bear every single Sunday. But then there also is the listening in the moment, both to the Spirit and to the people where if I say something and it gets a hardy amen, or you hear people go, “Hmm.” That’s the White version of amen, right? (laughs) But you hear people ... you talk back or feel back and you say, you know, I probably need to spend just a little bit more time on this. And hopefully I’m prepared enough to do so. If I’m not prepared enough to do so then me and the Lord have to wrestle a little bit and quickly. But hopefully you can speak a bit more about the things that you feel like your people need in that moment. Which you might not have known Tuesday or Wednesday when you were studying and writing. But on Sunday with your people right in front of you, you’re prepared. You can speak to them and provide something in the moment that you might not have thought about ahead of time. Because they’re in improvisation with you. Our sermons are not delivered in vacuums, they’re delivered in front of real people who have real wants and real concerns and real needs and they’re right there with you. If I think about myself just going to deliver the sermon, that’s not really a sermon. A sermon is the back and forth between the people and the preacher and the Word and the Holy Spirit all together in this moment. I do believe that. This is one thing that improv actually helps me understand preaching a little bit better. In the show when me and Tim and Michael – I’m in a group called Gladys, it’s the three of us, and when we go on there’s a list that has to be done and ideally you’re creating something not transactional but transformative and these characters go on journeys and people remember it. And we laugh and we explore. At the end it’s something we remember and cherish. We kind of want our sermons to feel that way as well. It’s not just delivering them into a vacuum but engaging people and them engaging you in one form or fashion. And walking away saying, “Hey, something happened there. And I don’t know that I can re-create that again.” I’m sure you’ve had that experience where you’ve preached the same sermon in four different rooms and it all had four different effects. Because the congregation was entirely different. I think that is good improvisational preaching. >>Doug Sweeney: To do it well, do you need to be in a congregation that is at least noticeably responding to you? Whether it’s a very vocal church that talks back to you out loud or not? In a lot of, as you called them “White Churches” ... not just White Churches thinking globally, but there’s lots of churches around the world where there’s not a lot of talking back. So, help our preachers think about – what does it mean to listen in a setting where there’s nothing to hear in your ear? >>Simmons: Yes. You’re exactly right. I had a pastor in Chicago when I was there. We were on the north side and he got invited to preach on the south side. He took a couple of deacons with him. And after the sermon one of the deacons said to the pastor, “Pastor, I’ve never heard you preach like that before.” And he said, “I’ve never had that much help before.” It’s very true! Having preached in many different rooms, it’s helpful to have people responding to you. To let you know that they want to hear some of that. On stage I would say if people are laughing, that’s good – they like it and they want more of that. People are saying “Amen,” or responding with their face or with their voice or whatever it may be, it’s helpful to know that, oh, this is maybe something that they’re interested in hearing more about. So, we have a challenge for my congregation and I’m working on it. I do put jokes in the sermon. Mostly because the jokes come first and I have to edit a number of them out, but if they’re laughing, they’re listening. You know? So, how do we consider humor in our sermons? How do we get close enough or an ability to connect with them to know if they’re listening? And I think ... And I don’t know, this is where I’ve got to do a bit more work. But I think the preacher/pastor knows his people and has to know if they’re with me or if they’re not. It’s an intuition. It’s an elimination. It’s the Holy Spirit speaking to us. I know when they’re not with me. I do know that! (laughs) You feel very vulnerable and you don’t feel like you have that support you need up there when they’re not with you. And so you’ve got to go back and find ... or I lose them and how can I stay connected with them and them with me the next week. I don’t know if that answers your question well. But it’s a very good question. One that I honestly haven’t preached in enough rooms to be able to codify and write down if this, then this, but that might also betray the improvisational spirit of, hey, take what you can and find the five that are with you and keep going. It’s challenging when you get to those. But, yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: Talk a little bit about the dangers of improvisation. Or to put it more positively so it doesn’t just sound like we’re scolding people. What does it mean to improvise from a position where you’re kind of submitted to the authority of the text and you’re trying to be careful not to misrepresent the text even as you’re sort of freeing yourself up to be a little bit improvisational. >>Simmons: Yeah. There are some dangers. One personally is hey I can fill my time, I’ve done some study but I’m not going to study all the way, because I know that I’ve got enough to get through the 30-40 minutes, however long you normally preach. And the danger of under preparedness is always a danger. Now hopefully you go up two or three times underprepared and you realize I can’t do this again. I really need to be prepared. But I would say the same for our students here, of hey, I waited till the night before and I got an A-, maybe I can wait till the night before again and say, no, you might have done it one time but the danger of under preparing ... you’re smirking which means you’ve probably got a few students in mind. (laughter) Or have been that student yourself. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s right. I’m not naming any names. >>Simmons: That’s right. The other danger and one you eluded to rightly is you can’t read into the text or go so far as to where you are misrepresenting the text. And this is where our study in hermeneutics and our preparedness is vitally important. You’ve got to know what the text says. And you’ve got to know what it meant then and the significance of it today. You really have to do that work or else you really run a danger of running afoul of the Word of God and then you’re held responsible for that. And so again going back to you have to have a very high view of scripture and a willingness to sit under the authority of God’s Word. Then beyond that is that maybe not every congregation would appreciate something like this. There are those who perhaps have been trained to ... if he’s not reading he’s not preaching. You know? He’s just making this up and so it feels a little less authoritative. Now hopefully practice and preparation, I think that this is actually a way to preach to the coming generations who might get bored, have short attention spans, but connecting with a speaker. And you don’t have to be a dynamic speaker, but a speaker that’s looking to connect with them, whose ready to come out from behind the pulpit and knows the Word and knows his points. I’m not talking about preaching without notes. That can be a part of it. I think notes, I compare them to secondary players. It’s setting the scene in improv but the improv scene is never about where you are in the room, it’s about the characters on the stage. And notes, I would encourage someone, use as many notes as you need to stay present. And if that means a lot of notes, well then get a lot of notes. But don’t be in your notes, be connected with the audience. But if you can come out and connect with a congregation and then they’re more likely to want to connect with you. And I think you then have as a transformed person, have an ability to speak the Word of God that transforms people. And that is the process by which I would encourage someone to pursue improvisational preaching. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Let’s end on a real practical note. Let’s assume we’ve got some preachers listening to us now who feel like, you know, he’s on to something. I’m not sure exactly what it will mean for me, but I’d like to try to take a couple of steps here to make good on some of this advice that Simmons has been giving me. If you’ve never really thought about this before and tried to do it, what would be the couple of steps you ought to try to make? >>Simmons: Yeah. There’s two things here. One, become aware of your abilities and inabilities to listen. And some people they can’t hear because they’re too in their head, or they’re too in their notes but in the preaching realm and start observing a bit more or practicing in a counseling moment. Try to get better at listening. And that’s something that everybody can always get better at. The second sounds silly, but I think it’s very practical. Take an improv class. Me and my buddies here in Birmingham started teaching improv classes about a year and a half ago. I had eight ministers in a room and we were doing improv exercises. And they loved it. They were great at it. My buddy, Tim, who was teaching it and he actually thought, “Actually, I think a group of pastors doing improv, they’re already starting on third base because just by their nature they have to be intuitive with people. They have to listen and respond all the time in their work. They’re going to get this.” And they did. It was funny and fun. Taking an improv class shows you all the ways that you have to get better at listening. It shows you a willingness and ability to create what you might not have known was there. And then it kind of scratches that itch of like there’s creation in me that I might not feel creative in the sermon because I’m having to go by the book with my exegesis to my exposition to my illustration and all these kinds of things. There’s a way to do this with some fun and spontaneity and creativity that I think our people are probably looking for, or wanting. “That was a little different on Sunday. He had a bit more passion. A bit more presence. I liked that.” The end goal of this I think ... When I say “of this” I’m talking about dissertation and thinking about this ... is that we want our people to be improvisers. Ultimately, that’s what we want when we’re preaching is that they walk away with the Word of God preached, transformed, knowing what God expects of them. What the rules are. So, that they can go into their daily lives without a script, because there is no script ... there is no, “Oh, if this happens at work on this day, then I should respond that way.” No. But we do have the foundational roles of our ethics so that we can improvise each and every day. And my theory would be that if we could become better improvisers in the pulpit then we are training to be better improvisers in the pew and better improvisers in their daily walks of faithfulness with God. >>Doug Sweeney: My friend, Kevin Vanhouser, who has written a little bit, not about improvisational preaching but about what it means to live a godly life under the authority of the bible suggests that the script is the text of holy scripture but the text of holy scripture doesn’t tell you what to do in every single situation you’re going to face day by day. So, the improvisation is figuring out how to kind of work in relation or work from that text in relation to what you’re actually facing in the moment. And we increase in our ability to do that fruitfully as we grow in wisdom and maturity in Christ. >>Simmons: Having read some of Dr. Vanhouser’s work I’m surfing in his wake a good bit. It is exactly what you said and he has done well with that. And Samuel Wells wrote the book, “Improvisation and Drama of Christian Ethics” that I have borrowed from heavily. And it’s like, hey, I agree with this wholeheartedly. Is there something I could do as a preacher to prepare people to be improvisers? And I think improvisational preaching could help them do that. So, I don’t want to promote here, but we are teaching improv classes here in Birmingham. And are going to be doing a lot more of it. And it is so fun and so silly and a real creative venture and a place to come and fail. By the way, if you’re trying this have kind, wonderful people that are willing to give you some grace, because it doesn’t always go well. But having a willingness to come and try things out and learn to listen and learn to agree and specifically for our orthodox people to learn what to agree to and what not to agree to. And where we disagree. How we do so in a way that the two seem partners in this little scene, stay connected and stay in relationship. Improv has a lot to teach both preachers and pastors to help in their work of shepherding people. >>Doug Sweeney: Jacob, we always like to end by asking people what God’s doing in their life these days, what he’s teaching you? >>Simmons: Well, you’ve heard a lot of what I’ve been taught academically and what I’m trying to learn and study. I am learning as a pastor of Hope Community Church just for two years, and I’ve never felt more green than I do now. I am intimately aware with my failures as a leader and as a pastor. But the Lord has been so gracious and so kind, and the church has been wonderfully supportive of me and Suzanne. And so learning now is just the daily faithfulness that it will all get done and we will do it the best we can. And that the Lord is with us kind of in the drudgery. It’s not drudgery, it’s a joy, but it is a lot of responsibility. Of course with two little ones – our son is six and our daughter is three, almost four. She’ll remind you regularly. We’re just in that busy season of life. And the Lord is sustaining us and we’re so thankful. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. You have been listening to pastor Jacob Simmons of Hope Community Church. We’re pleased to say he is an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School, as is his dear wife, Suzanne. Thank you, Jacob for being with us today. Thank you, dear listeners, for tuning in. We love you. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.