Beeson Podcast, Episode #678 Name Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. I am joined today in our podcast studio with a good friend of mine and one of the most popular professors here at Beeson Divinity School, Dr. Gordon Bals. Gordon teaches in the area of pastoral care and counseling. And he is leading our new master of arts program in Christian Counseling. We hope to tell you all about it. Thank you, Dr. Bals, for being with us! >>Bals: Thanks. It’s great to be here. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Of course, some of you know Dr. Bals personally already. Some of you know about him. But probably not everybody does. So, Gordon, why don’t we start by just learning a little bit about you. Where do you come from? How did you become a Christian? And how did you get to Beeson Divinity School? >>Bals: Yeah. Well, I grew up at the Jersey Shore ... not the one that people hear about on MTV. But I lived about a mile from the Atlantic Ocean and grew up as a Roman Catholic and was converted in college. That’s where I felt a call to ministry. And I really thought long term I would be a pastor, but I had read a book by Larry Crab, really liked it, went and studied underneath him and Dan Allinder. And then eventually came to Birmingham to be on staff at a church. That’s where I really learned of Beeson, when I came to Birmingham. So, I started teaching full time last year and I’ve been here since ’95. So, I was well acquainted with Beeson. I had done some adjunct teaching somewhere else, but when Langston Haygood retired they asked me to start teaching marriage and family and it kind of developed from there. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. And just for people who don’t already know this, you founded a counseling clinic in town called Daymark Pastoral Counseling. What year was that? >>Bals: That was in ’97. And now there are eight counselors there and we serve the needs of individuals in churches in the area. >>Doug Sweeney: Fantastic. So, you’ve been teaching a long time at Beeson. You’ve been teaching full time not too long. As you’ve kind of eased into becoming a full time member of the faculty, how has it been for you? Not that you were new to Beeson, but what’s it like being a full time member of this community as a prof? >>Bals: Well, like anything, it took some adjustment. Partly, I spent almost 30 years vocationally as a counselor and so you’re with people day in and day out. So, it’s a little different to have a little bit more alone time. Which I’ve come to enjoy, because I’ve had a little bit more time to study and prepare and grow in that way. But really what I’ve liked most is really becoming part of the community. Sometimes as a vocational counselor it’s pretty lonely. As a staff we’ll do an every other week get together, but that’s really different than being part of a community and seeing a lot of people regularly. It was some adjustment initially, but at this point it’s been a year. And I’m just really enjoying the variety of things I get to do and the amount of relationships I’m developing. And having a lot more time to spend with students. For instance, yesterday afternoon I played golf with a couple of students and just have really enjoyed that aspect of it. >>Doug Sweeney: I tell you what, the students sure do love you. In fact, I remember the first couple of years I was here at Beeson. We came in 2019. And you had been teaching part time for a while by then. And I can’t tell you how many students came up to me personally, made an appointment with me in my office, sent me emails saying, “Dear Dean Sweeney, can you please find a way to bring Dr. Bals onto the faculty full time? We cannot get enough of him.” So, thanks for all you’re doing for our students. Well, the exciting new thing is that we’re going to launch a new masters degree in Christian Counseling, and we want our listeners to know about it, we want to ask our listeners to pray for us as we launch this. We want to do it in the best possible way – a way that really honors the Lord and his will for it. As they’re praying for us, let’s tell them a little bit about it. What are we going to do? And what is special about what we’re going to do here at Beeson Divinity School with counseling? >>Bals: First off, people I think are pretty aware that there’s a need. But I would say it’s not just because there’s a need. Because some of what’s happening in our culture is people are being drawn outside the church sometimes or oftentimes for help because the church isn’t doing a good job really explaining, I would say, from a depth perspective, a theologically grounded perspective of why people are having problems. And what does it really mean? I’m going to use a different word than “mental health.” If mental health is our kind of psychological and emotional wellbeing I want us to think we’re not just emotional feelers or cognitive thinkers. We’re relational worshippers. And so we want to help people move towards flourishing. Which I think is much bigger than just emotional or psychological wellbeing. And I don’t believe you can do that in a fullness apart from a community that a church provides and also from thinking outside the scriptures. If the gospel is summed up in loving God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself, I would suggest that part of flourishing as a human being is being able to get outside yourself and care well for others. That doesn’t mean all the time we’re doing that at the expense of ourselves. Sometimes caring well for yourself may mean setting limits. But oftentimes mental health doesn’t really move a person towards flourishing where they’re developing an interdependency where they’re giving and receiving. The scriptures say “he who refreshes himself refreshes others.” Part of our flourishing is being able to care well for others. So, we want to have kind of within our thinking a degree that really helps people to see others as relational worshippers and incorporating the whole church, the way a whole church helps someone move towards flourishing. >>Doug Sweeney: So, how do you do that at a seminary? I mean, I guess part of what we’re going to do is we’re going to train people who will work as pastors who have special responsibility for counseling at a local congregation. Probably some of our graduates will go on to places like the place you came from – Daymark. But what do you do at a seminary that makes a counseling masters kind of special and helpfully theological in all of the best ways? >>Bals: Yeah. I like to define Christian counseling simply as helping someone be reconciled to God. Now, when we’re converted we’re reconciled to God but we have a fleshly nature and the world gets in the way of that. So, we believe moving towards flourishing really part of that is sanctification or being reconciled to God. So, to help someone be reconciled to God it’s good to understand how God has related to his people. This may sound strange because I’ll be teaching the counseling courses and I’m super excited about that. But I’m really excited about having people who are thinking about counseling, who are doing our history and doctrine sequence, and are thinking about how has God related to his people? And how have his people related to Him through the centuries in a way that our doctrine and church practices develop? If you want someone to be able to help someone be reconciled to God, I hope our students are kind of experts at that ... there are no experts when it comes to the soul but that they really have a sense of what it means to be reconciled to God. And how the Church has grown into doing that in beautiful ways and what got in the way of that. So, that’s part of it – the bible and theology, history and doctrine sequence. >>Doug Sweeney: Let’s try to make sense of this for our listeners “in-the-know” in relation to some of the categories that certain kinds of people have in their minds when they think about Christian counseling methods. Some schools, some seminaries teach what is known as a nouthetic counseling style that is sort of a bible only style of Christian counseling. Others at the other end of the spectrum have a pretty secular way of teaching counseling where most of the tools you’re giving students come from secular disciplines like psychology. Where is ours going to fit on that spectrum? >>Bals: Doug, that’s a really good question. I think in some ways my answer helps us understand what we’re aiming for in terms of the degree that we’re building. On the one end, you’re going to have the nouthetic people, on the other end you’re going to have what’s called the integrationists or clinical counselors. Really, what we want our students to be aiming for is something really different. A nouthetic counselor, I’m going to say, is often animated too much by their fear of the world. And whenever we’re kind of moving forward out of fear it hampers our rest in faith. And so a nouthetic counselor might be trusting in, out of self reliance, their understanding of the scriptures. They might even be trusting in their ability to articulate their understanding of the scriptures, and that’s growing out of some fear I don’t want our students to be feeding. I really want our students to be moving forward in faith – where their rest is not in their knowledge of the scriptures or even in their ability to articulate the scriptures. Not that the scriptures won’t matter most of all. We see them as authoritative. But what we want them really trusting in is the finished work of Christ in the ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit. We really see any restoration and healing, any redemption that comes out of the counseling encounter is really a work of the Holy Spirit and the counselors we’re training, we want them to see themselves as vessels. And that they’re trying to know the scriptures and embody the scriptures, but their trust fundamentally is on the finished work of Christ and the ongoing ministry of the Spirit. On the other end of the spectrum, we might have the integrationists or the clinical person. And really there’s degrees of both kinds at your seminary. You’re going to have your biblical counseling degree in seminaries, which is more nouthetic. And your mental health counseling degree at seminaries, which is going to be more clinical. And if the nouthetic is more animated by kind of a fear of the world, then I think your clinical person might be more animated by a fear of missing out. They want to keep up with the evidence based practices today, and kind of what the new rage in the world is. For instance, a lot of that today is about trauma. And there’s certainly really beautiful things we can learn about trauma, but the scriptures have always taught that your body and soul work together. So, instead of being afraid of missing out and trying to keep up with all the latest things, we really want our students to be informed and understand evidence based practices, but again we want their trust not to be in the evidence based practices or in qualitative research. We want their fundamental trust to be in what the Lord is doing in the person’s life who is sitting across from them and how do they be a vessel to help facilitate that. I think a simple passage that might illustrate what I’m talking about here is in Corinthians where Paul says “knowledge puffs up.” If you’re seeking knowledge on either end, your knowledge of the scriptures or your knowledge of evidence based practices, if you’re seeking that to have power, that’s going to make you proud. Even if you’re seeking it to do a good job, but you’re more self reliant – it’s going to puff you up. But then it goes on to say, “if anyone thinks he knows something, he doesn’t yet know it as he ought to know it, but if anyone loves God, he’s being known by Him.” We want people who are being trained and then we want their training to help them realize the people they’re counseling are worshippers and are lovers so that their main movement forward is as a counselor to be reconciled to God or to be known by God and to help the client to be known by God – and that really takes a rest in Christ’s finished work and really being offended by grace in many rich and meaningful ways that really do move us towards flourishing. The last thing I would say about this kind of theme is we don’t want the posture of our counselors to be rigidly biblical on the one hand or clinical on the other end. We really want it to be pastoral. We think it’s going to really matter that they’re in a community of people who are training to be pastors. And a pastor is a shepherd. He is someone who is guiding others towards reconciliation with God. And if that’s what we want our students to be doing I think it’s going to really help that they’re in a community where everyone is trying to develop that posture and it’s going to really matter in how they embody the gospel in the context of counseling. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. So, now let’s take it all the way to the ground level. Just in case there’s people listening who either would like to enroll or they have friends, loved ones who ought to enroll ... what are the students who come to Beeson to do this masters in counseling going to be in for? How long is the program going to be? And what are the kinds of classes that they’ll take? >>Bals: Great question. So, it will start in the fall of next year. And you will be able to go fall, spring, and summer and it would be three terms each year, a two year degree. There are seven bible and theology courses and eleven counseling courses. So, some of our foundational counseling courses are counseling theory, human development and theological perspective, theological foundations of counseling. We also have a class called Mental Health and the Church. They will learn some about the DSM-5 which counselors use to diagnose or psychopharmacology. Because we believe a lot of our students will be referring and working with mental health professionals and we want them to know how to do that. So, the practice courses will be sexuality, marriage and family, trauma grief and crisis, there will also be an internship and a practicum. So, I think there’s a good spectrum. And it’s similar to what someone would do in a clinical mental health program. But it is just more focused with I think more of a depth kind of theological perspective. >>Doug Sweeney: Then the bible and theology classes that are added onto that; what’s that experience going to be like for students? >>Bals: Again, I mention the history and doctrine sequence, which is four courses where they’re going to travel through time and how God related to his people and doctrine developed. But in addition to that, they’ll have an old testament survey and a new testament survey. We’re wanting to help people think theologically in how to really approach the scriptures in a way where they’re coming away more nourished and fulfilled and really with a better way to do their own work in the scriptures. And then there will also be a spiritual formation class. So, that’s the seven bible and theology classes. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. I imagine as we get going some of our regular bible and theology and history and doctrine professors will find it exciting with counseling students in the room trying to think about how to relate what they do normally for people who say they want to be a preaching and teaching pastor and apply it to the work of counselors. That will be an interesting stretch and adjustment for them. I think I already know a fair amount about how you integrate the scriptures and theology and so on in your own teaching, but just for listeners who don’t ... when they come to a class of yours at Beeson, what’s the experience like? Are you using the bible at all? Are you using mostly tools from psychology? Are you trying to fit them together? How does that go for you? >>Bals: I would say in general everything is well integrated where whatever we’re doing we’re trying to think theologically about it. But certainly in class we’re going to cover passages ... I’m teaching a trauma crisis and grief class right now. And I have some quotes from The Body Keeps A Score, which is a very popular book in counseling circles. I want them, again, to ... it’s a rich tradition within the church that we believe impacts the soul and the soul impacts the body. But we’re going to read things from The Body Keeps A Score and then think about it biblically and theologically and practically. If we think even just practically, and this might be an example I’ll use in class, I might be saying I’m meeting with someone who has lost a spouse. And they’re not sleeping. And part of what can ... this is a term in your psychological literature, it’s called “cascading grief.” If you lose a spouse, oftentimes the person who you would grieve with is now gone. So, now you have lost a spouse and you have no one to grieve with. Now let’s say they were the one that handled the finances. Now you don’t have someone handling the finances. And maybe they made the coffee in the morning. Well, your grief begins to cascade. Right? And so I may be working with someone like that and they’re not sleeping because of all of that. And I suggest – I think you should go see your GP or your OBGYN and just ask about maybe getting some help with medication. And there are still believers who can be afraid about that type of thing. And they might say, “Well, if I just prayed more I would do better.” And I’d be like, “I think with a good night of sleep you might want to pray more.” And just try to bring those two things together. >>Doug Sweeney: Wow. You sound like my wife, Wilma. (laughter) ... giving advice to me. All right. So, the next question, I want to ask you this question ... I know full well if I’m the one receiving this question it will make me feel a little bit awkward, but I think I know you well enough to know you can handle it just fine. I get students telling me a lot that they have grown more spiritually in your classes than they have in most other classes. And of course I do historical theology, church history. I’m not an expert in counseling. And probably most people out in the world, they’re experiences are with psychology and counseling and so on are more like mine than yours. And to a person like me, I think, wow, I love that, praise the Lord – but I wonder why? What is it about the way we teach counseling at Beeson that leads a whole bunch of students to say, “You know? I’m growing spiritually in this class. I’ve not experienced this before.” >>Bals: I mean, there would obviously be a lot of different ways I could answer that. Probably the simplest is it says in Matthew that “if you judge the log in your own eye, you will see more clearly to judge the splinter in your brother’s eye.” I believe good counseling can happen to some degree as we’re just growing in the gospel, that we’re seeing that sin gets in the way of clarity in our hearts. And so if we’re growing ... I don’t mean it at all in a rigid sense, I mean it in a much more beautiful sense. If we’re being sanctified then our countenance is being lifted and we’re seeing the world more clearly. So, within my courses one of the things I have them do is send out a 360 degree survey where they get feedback from people on the type of listeners they are. Well, what’s surprising to me is most people base their view of themselves on themselves. Which the scriptures might call pride. (laughter) And so to actually get input ... and I’m teaching, I’m saying I want this to be the beginning of a lifelong exercise. So, I began that practice in my own master of arts and biblical counseling in 1992. So, this had to be around 2000. So, it’s eight years later. And I’m talking with my wife and there’s a little bit of tension. And my daughter who is about four or five says, “Daddy, mommy is not a child. Don’t talk to her like that.” Now, if I hadn’t learned to take feedback what I might have said to that daughter is a lot different than what I did say. And what I did say was, “Sweetheart, you’re right and daddy is wrong. And what you’re saying is really helpful to daddy.” And really what I said is, “Girl, you’re really observant. And there’s something [inaudible 00:20:47] that’s really good and I want to affirm. So, I’m wanting our students to be able to think about their own lives in the context of scripture and really teach a repentance that is so much bigger than just choosing differently over an act, which we often think repentance is a simple choice over an act. Not the whole way we’re turning our lives more toward the Lord and away from things that take us away from him. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. So, if we piqued anybody’s interest and they want to know more about what we’re doing and how they can be involved and how you apply, that kind of thing – how do people get connected into the launch of this program? >>Bals: I think the easiest way would be to get on our website and once you get on the website there will be things where you can show your interest. One of the things I really like again about becoming part of the community is that I don’t do this alone. And the people in our admissions department are just super sharp and super caring. So, if you contact them they’re going to be willing to help you kind of learn whatever you need to learn. But the website often, like any website, has other things that you can just look at and learn about our program. But the simplest thing would be to show, designate that you’re interested in the program, you will get an email from them and me that talks about how you can follow up in other ways and we’ll follow up with you. My email is on the Beeson website. gbals@samford.edu. I am glad if you’re in town or want to come into town, I am glad to get coffee, have lunch, do whatever. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. Well, listeners, now you know how to be involved. We invite you. This is a brand new program for us. We’re starting it in August. We’re starting to advertise it pretty aggressively these days. So, please help us spread the word. All right, Gordon. You’ve been on the show before, so you know we have this little tradition where we like to end always by asking guests to kind of encourage our listeners by saying a word about what the Lord is teaching you these days. What is he doing in your life these days that you’re grateful for? So, I ask it of you. What are you learning these days from the Lord? >>Bals: The beautiful thing about teaching is you learn a lot. I’m teaching a trauma, grief, and crisis course right now. And so I’ve had to think a lot about trauma. And a lot of what we’re seeing in trauma is, as I’ve said earlier, the body and soul are connected. And oftentimes we’ve thought about sanctification only as a top-down process. Memorizing scripture, meditating on scripture, which I never want to minimize. But we don’t emphasize bottom-up practices where like a good night of sleep will help us to meditate better. And I’m just practicing better at incorporating what are called somatic practices. So, for instance, I’m walking more. The bilateral movement in walking helps both parts of your brain to work together better. Before I understood how the body worked in trauma and everything, I used to say, “I seem to pray best when I’m walking.” The reason I was, was because both parts of my brain ... when we’re kind of in a fear mode or in fight or flight mode, only the feeling part of our brain is working and it’s hard to access the more rational part where they’re working together. So, now just walking I realize I’m better able to pray and to process and I’m more refreshed than other things I might do. So, I’ve just begun to incorporate more bottom-up practices kind of in my spiritual growth. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great advice for all of us. Listeners, this has been Dr. Gordon Bals. He teaches counseling and pastoral care here at Beeson Divinity School. He is a beloved faculty member and member of our community. And he is going to be the main leader of our new MA in Christian Counseling. We thank you, Gordon, for being on the show with us. We thank you, listeners, for learning a bit about what’s going on in counseling here at Beeson and spreading the word for us. Again, as always, we say we love you, we thank you for praying for us. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.