Beeson Podcast, Episode #673 Dr. AK Lama Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney, and I’m joined today by my friend, Dr. A K Lama, a Beeson alumnus who is a leader in multiple missions and ministry agencies all around the world. We don’t have time to mention them all. But let me say for now, AK is the Director of South Asia Ministries for Words of Hope. He serves as the Executive Director of Transforming Leaders in Asia. He’s involved in many other forms of ministry as well. This past week, he has been our featured speaker for our missions emphasis week. We call it Go Global Week, which emphasizes cross-cultural ministry. We have been deeply blessed by our brother, Dr. Lama, as he’s ministered among us. Thank you, sir, for being with us. We love you and we’re grateful to have you on the podcast. How about let’s introduce you to those listeners who don’t already know you or don’t already know about you by asking you just to tell us a little bit about your background, how did you come to faith in Christ, and how did you come to sense that God was leading you at least eventually into ministry? >>Lama: Dr. Doug, thank you once again for the invitation that I had and my wife had for this Global Emphasis Week. We totally enjoy. It was a great opportunity to once again reconnect with a family, I would say. The Beeson family. I was born and raised in a devout Buddhist family. My parents were temple caretakers. One of my daily chores would be to keep the temple clean. When I was in ninth grade I met my first Christian, he was my teacher. I was deeply impressed by his character. He was a man who would never lose his temper, very humble, loving and caring. He invited me to his family prayer meeting. And then presented me an English bible. And then also introduced me to his church. I was fascinated by the teachings of Jesus Christ. Something that I had never heard. Like loving your enemy. In our tribal culture, we don’t love enemies – we try to take revenge. And settle it. Make it even. But loving your enemy and forgiving the sinners. Then talking about turning your other cheek when somebody slaps you was very fascinating. But when my parents came to know about my fascination about Christianity and my going on and off to the church – they were very angry. When I tried to explain why Christianity is a worth exploring religion, my older brother in his anger, he almost attempted to kill me. He threw a lamp filled with kerosene burning over my head. Somehow I escaped. I ducked my head and I survived. But he asked me to leave home unless I changed my mind. I left home for three days and wandered in the forest. Reflecting on whether it is worth defending Christianity which I have hardly come to know. (laughs) I hardly know anything about Christianity. So, after three days I decided to return home and express my apologies to my family and ask their forgiveness. I promised that I will not go to any church. I will not have anything to do with Christians anymore. I completed my high school and then went to veterinary science in 1980. Lo and behold the Lord surrounded me once again with a group of students so loving and caring. They were all my [inaudible 00:04:06]. And I found out later on that they were all belonged to Intervarsity Bible Study group. (laughs) And I was grateful to them because they helped me a lot. So, when they invited me to the bible study group I could not say “no.” And one going leads me to another going, because they are always loving, caring, good food, good friendship – and genuine love. Genuine care. You know? So, I started enjoying the bible study because they would also give me opportunity to ask tough questions. And there are times I would point out to them that how Christianity is such a great religion, but Christians are not great. Buddhists are much more better than Christians. And they would accept that. They would welcome me to participate in spite of it. They would never get hurt or offended. They would still invite me. So, I kept on going for two years to those bible studies. In the process, the Word of God had begun to convict me. I already began to realize that I am a sinner. I needed forgiveness. And Jesus, I had nothing against Jesus. I had many things against Christians. But nothing against Jesus. But fear of persecution and risking my future with suffering and isolation and rejection, and my personal doubt about my ability – whether I would be able to follow Jesus Christ kept me away from any public confessions. I thought better of just quietly following Jesus Christ. Until one day, the 24th of October, 1983. One of the evening fellowships we were sitting, I found myself fully convicted. My fear was gone. I felt so much confident. And the love of God filled my heart and I was standing in tears asking forgiveness, publicly. And that day the Lord helped me to surrender my life. The Lord accepted me as his child. That was my turning point. So, I don’t want to say I accepted Jesus Christ. I would say the Lord had mercy on me. Because I had every explanation why I should not follow Jesus Christ. But the Lord gave me confidence that he will enable me to follow him. So, following that wonderful experience, I wanted to leave everything and become an evangelist. But my mentor in the Intervarsity group guided me to finish my veterinary studies and then return home and serve the government as I was a government sponsor student. So, I served the government for five and a half years. In 1984, I graduated with very good results. I topped in the university at the fifth rank. Which was a miracle to me, myself. (laughs) Because in the first year I was almost going to be ejected from the university. I got so many D grades. But we were all surprised. I think it’s all because of the fellowship of the Christians, those who encouraged me and gave me a clarity in my life. And vision. At the end of the completion of all of my obligations with the government, I still had some doubts if the Lord wanted me to serve him in full time as a bible teacher or could serve as a veterinary doctor and still serve the Lord. But somewhere inside I had the urge that the Lord deserved my full attention, 100% of my time. And he expressed his will and desire through three different resources. First, my context kept coming in my mind again and again. In my context I saw the scarcity of the qualified bible teacher. And I also saw the desperate spiritual poverty in our society. In Christian community as well as non Christian community. Second, the council of the mentors who were beside me, always said if you love the Lord, you must trust him fully. Have faith in him and trust him for your present and future. The only reason if I was a little bit hesitant to come out of the government job was financial security. My mentor says, “No, trust him. Have faith in him.” And the Lord spoke to me from Samuel 84, one morning, just the day I completed five and a half years. I should have only done five years of the government job. The day I completed five and a half years I would do normally every morning quiet time. And that particular morning Samuel 84 was my study. But I got stuck in verse 10 and it says “Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere. I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.” While being five and a half years in the government I knew how many wickeds I was dealing with on a daily basis. (laughs) And the Lord was showing me – your job is to come with me. And give your full time, 100%. So, I just could not walk away from this text. Finally, on June 30, 1990 I resigned from the government job and joined Intervarsity Campus Ministry to work among college students. It was a big financial adjustment. I was getting plus $30,000 and then suddenly I get only $1,500 and my family members, all of them, they thought I had gone crazy and that I needed counseling. Some kind of clinical help. (laughs) But my wife and I had complete peace and joy. We had no even iota of fear for the future. We felt that this is what we needed to do for a long time. So, that’s how I joined the ministry. >>Doug Sweeney: My goodness. Well, and then what happened after that? Did you go to a different kind of school after that? Did you get fully involved right away in the practice of ministry? How did you prepare for the large scale ministries that you’re leading these days? >>Lama: The wonderful thing is Intervarsity, you are praying right from the [inaudible 00:10:20] inductive bible study. In the beginning, when I joined the ministry, to be honest, I was very skeptical of going to seminary. I thought the Lord was returning tomorrow, anytime. It would be a waste of money and time to go to seminary. Right now people are perishing on the campus, these young people – they need to know the Lord! So, both my wife and me, we were already academically trained well enough. She was a medical doctor and I was a veterinary doctor. And I remember one of the greatest expositor from [inaudible 00:10:55] who was also working with IVS he was also a medical doctor. He never went to seminary. So, I used to see him as my model. I said, we don’t need to go to seminary. We can serve the Lord. I think at the end of eight years, the Lord started to speak to me that I need to go through training. You don’t have the credentials to teach these people who have already gone to seminary! (laughs) And there were many occasions where questions were asked and I answered biblically correct but they would say, “What credentials do you have to say it that way?” [inaudible 00:11:34] they would ask that question. Then I realized, I should prepare. >>Doug Sweeney: I know what eventually you made your way to Beeson Divinity School. But how did you get from that part of your story to the US and to Beeson? >>Lama: Interesting. You know? These college students who were graduating, to whom I was ministering, when they went to their church they realized that many pastors needed to hear me. So, they organized a pastor’s conference. I still remember. It was a unique ... 80 pastors came. And almost every pastor who had come there was worn out, confused, tired, because of the low salary, complaints from the deacons and elders, and the uncertainty of the future of the children. They were there because somehow some of these graduates from the college sponsored them and said, “Go, listen to AK Lama.” So, I was there. And I spent time mostly on teaching the word of God and sharing my testimony and spiritual formation. On the last day almost everyone was in tears and said, “We’ll go back and serve the Lord, no matter what happens to our future.” Then I realized that the most important person in the Christian community is the pastors and leaders. If we want to transform the society, we need to have a transformed church. But how the church will transform if the pastor himself is demoralized and discouraged? Pastors are always giving, but they have no one to give. I could feel a clear calling that I need to take care of these key effected people in the Christian world who are instrumental in empowering the Great Commission of the church. They have to be much more passionate than anyone else. So, I started looking for training. If I had to train them I needed to be intellectually trained. So, I shared this concern with some of my friends. And one of that friend happened to be the General Secretary of the Baptist Federation. And sometime in 1987 there was a Baptist [inaudible 00:13:46] Conference at Samford University. And I happened to meet Dr. Timothy George. Dr. George was also wanting to train leaders – his name is Reverend [inaudible 00:14:00]. He said, Reverend Boni I have an application, if you find the right candidate, give this application and we will take care of his tuition. He went back to India. It seems like for three days he was praying and every time he closed his eyes he saw my face! (laughs) And so he finally calls me and he says, “Would you consider to go to Beeson Divinity School” And I said, “Where is it?” He said, “Birmingham.” I thought Birmingham, UK ... and Beeson, I’d never heard about. I heard about Wheaton College, Fuller, I was dreaming to go to a big college. He comes back again after seven days and he says, “You know, you never know, the Lord can do from small things to a big thing. Consider going to Beeson.” So, I filled out the form and I sent it to him. That’s how I’m here. >>Doug Sweeney: I sure am glad you made it here! I have important questions to ask you about what the Lord is doing in your ministry right now. But can I ask you just very briefly what was your experience like when you made it to Beeson? >>Lama: Wonderful. Initially, the first three to four days were a struggle. I was still wondering if I made the right choice. Some of the funny experiences, I learned about myself, I didn’t know how to function, I didn’t know how to use phones, I didn’t know how to use anything. It was a cultural shock. So, the first few days was a struggle. But as soon as I began to join the class and make some friends, wonderful experience. The faculty, staff, [inaudible 00:15:33] ... everyone was there to help me. Loving care and concern. I found another family. It became a second home. A wonderful experience. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. I know after Beeson you went on for a PhD in Old Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. My former school where you and I first met. >>Lama: Correct! >>Doug Sweeney: That’s something that’s special at least for the two of us. I’m not sure we need to draw our listeners into all the details of our relationship, but it did begin at my former seminary. And then when I came to serve as the Dean of Beeson I was thrilled to learn that you had begun your US part of your ministry journey at Beeson. When you were done with all of the training, and the Lord took you back to India, other parts of Asia, to do ministry, what did he put on your heart and what were the experiences initially that led you into the field of ministry where you’re active as a leader these days? >>Lama: Yeah, you see, my whole concern was to go back and reach out to pastors, train them. Help them to understand how their life is so important, their ministry is so significant for the future of the churches, for the future of the kingdom work in India. They are the people, they are the ones through which God will make history. So, that’s my desire. I was still wondering where is the platform? So, looking for how to go and I didn’t have the funding. The [inaudible 00:17:03] ministry that we started here didn’t have enough funds for me to support to go there. It was a very humble, small few friends who were supporting. So, I ended up going to serve as a pastor of a Baptist church. He’s the same person who had introduced me to the school. He was associate pastor and they were looking for a senior pastor. They lost their senior pastor. So, I was immediately hired as the senior pastor. But one thing leads to another. When I was hired as the senior pastor, meanwhile, the general secretary of council of Baptist churches, one of the largest Baptist umbrella in northeast India, which has more than 8,500 churches, eight seminaries, six hospitals, three nursing schools ... they lost their general secretary. So, the search committee nominated my name and I think it’s all because of maybe the relationship that we had. People knew me. In no way was I qualified for that post because I was not even in the association of a church. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, what a big job to move into! >>Lama: I was in Intervarsity Ministry which was a parachurch. So, when I was invited I had to sell my integrity and I say I made a commitment to this church. I cannot say “yes.” Unless the church themselves sent me on [inaudible 00:18:28]. Anyway, the church was part of that council also. They approached the church and finally the church dedicated me and sent me [inaudible 00:18:36]. So, five and a half years I worked. But when I joined, I told them, I have come with a commitment to do the training and equipping and encouraging and [inaudible 00:18:47] pastors. So, I would take care of the administrative needs, but my perspective is interdenominational. I will be committed to train pastors from every denomination when you allow me to do that. And they all agreed. So, [inaudible 00:19:06] became an integral part while I was secretary. So, five and a half years the Lord used me mightily. And then after that I came out and I realized that I need to give more time to the pastors. The more you become engaged then you realize now you don’t have enough time for the pastors. Because too much of administrative work in the council. So, they actually wanted me to continue to 15 years, but five and a half years was I think good enough. I said whatever changes, reformation or development that I could do and perhaps it’s not worth for me to mention what good they will tell you, the very fact that they asked me to continue means they were happy with my work. But I’ve decided to focus more on training pastors and serving the pastors. >>Doug Sweeney: What an education, though, in institutional leadership. >>Lama: Yes. >>Doug Sweeney: To use a biblical metaphor, a baptism by fire in institutional leadership. My word. >>Lama: Yes. So, we have been for almost 17 years now in India after we returned from here. And God blessed our ministry. We grew from two of us to 110 on our team. And working among 18 different languages. The council was focused mainly among the Baptists, but this has broadened my horizon to all denominations. And that way I have reached out beyond northeast India all the way to northwest of India, central India, and even in the country like Bhutan and [inaudible 00:20:42]. So, it has really broadened my ... so, that’s why I feel that this was a good move to come out and do what God has asked me to do. >>Doug Sweeney: Wow. That’s great. So, I want our listeners to pray for and support your ministries in the present. So, let’s kind of fast forward to the present day. Can you give us a thumbnail sketch? You’re involved in so many different ways in ministry in India and beyond. But is it possible for you to give us a thumbnail sketch of the range of ministries that you’re involved with these days so we can ask our listeners to get behind you and support you? >>Lama: Sure. We are major on social media. We try to reach out to both Christians and people from other faiths through social media. And after that we will do follow up and then we will invest our time in disciple making and then training. Our method is to establish our presence in the community as a community development worker. We don’t call ourselves church planters and evangelists. We are community development workers, because we believe in holistic development, and holistic growth of the community. So, we focus on education and skill development training centers, sustenance and healthcare products, counseling and prayer centers. We don’t use the term “church” but we do establish prayer centers where people from all faiths can come and pray to the Creator God, the Almighty God who sent his only begotten Son Jesus for all humanity, not only for Christians. So, that’s the way we try to reach out to the community. And our primary focus is impoverished and underprivileged people groups. Because they are the ones who are neglected from all sides. Our geographical targets are mostly unreached places in the northern part of India and the western part of India. Places like Bhutan and also some places bordering India in Nepal and Bangladesh bordering India. So, those are the places we are working. >>Doug Sweeney: I know you well enough to know that the Lord has been at work in and through some of these ministries in a very powerful way. And I don’t want to overdo the differences between ministry in the US and ministry in the parts of India and Asia where you have leadership responsibilities, but there are some differences. And one of them is someone like me goes to ministry conferences, clergy conferences today in the US and a lot of what we talk about are problems and divisions and decline and so on. And in the midst of those meetings, I’m always longing for a little bit of a glimpse into the ways in which God is continuing to act in the world, saving people from their sins, sanctifying them, making disciples through people’s ministries. I happen to know he’s doing that in and through your ministries. Are there some special ways that might be an encouragement to our listeners in which the Lord has been at work that you might share with us? >>Lama: One of the things that I would like to share is the context of India is slightly different, as you know, because of the political situation now. The last ten years it has been slightly different. Where unfortunately too much of anti Christian campaign and fake news and propaganda. So, that has been a little bit ... >>Doug Sweeney: I read a lot in the US ... those of us who pay attention to world news read a lot about [inaudible 00:24:28] Hindu nationalism and crackdown on Christian ministries. >>Lama: Exactly, yeah. Which is frustrating. But in spite of that fact, even in the midst of that, there are a large number of people responding to the gospel. They are coming to Christ. I keep on saying that you really don’t need a rocket science or great technique to reach people. People come to Christ because they see the work of the Holy Spirit. And they are convicted by the Holy Spirit. They just come. And they receive healings. They receive miraculous touch in their life. They see the change in the life of their children and the life of their husband. And they can see the truth in it. So, that’s what we are excited here in India when we are serving. We see that is going on in spite of that ... so we don’t want to focus too much on the persecution aspect or the fear aspect. We are just excited. I also keep on saying that we are on the mission field. We really don’t have the luxury of debating ontological polarizations or teleological opinions. We just want to serve the community. And the Spirit of God is ahead of us wherever we go he is already at work. We just need to join. So, that’s the luxury we don’t have in here, but we have a joy of seeing that fruit of coming. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. All right. We want to be at Beeson and among the podcast listeners, we want to be praying for and supporting you and your work. Give us a few ways in which we can be behind you prayerfully and financially as well. >>Lama: Please pray for the safety and the security of our field workers. As I say, justice and fairness of the system and tightening of very strict regulatory rules and suspicion against Christian [inaudible 00:26:26] particularly. That has increased lots of paperwork. I go through that now. You have to make sure that everybody is happy. You satisfy them, it’s a lot of paperwork. So, one must lead with much uncertainty in prison situations. So, there is always ... I still have certain things going on that I’m still uncertain of how that will end. So, hopefully ... but that also helps us to remain on our knees. (laughs) It brings us close to God. In the last ten years, as I say, there’s so much anti Christian fake news, propaganda ... just to clarify or clear those misconceptions itself is a huge load before you present the Good News. You know? You have to clear first of all those wrong perceptions that people have about Christianity. And that is where we have to build a bridge with the community. We have to help them understand that what you’re hearing is not right. We do care for our country. We do care for our people. We love you all. That is right now what we are doing. So, pray for us that we will be successful in doing so. Right now we are also building a training center. We’ll have 138 pastors accommodated there because this informal training is a very important significant part in the life of a pastor and leader. They don’t have any other training center in that area where they will focus more on bible centered training. It’s a biblical exegesis, we teach, talk about spiritual formation, we talk about nurturing your relationship with your family and with your elders and deacons, we talk about how do you double up your own spiritual life in such a way that your character goes before your charisma. All that, you know? We have been doing this training for, since 1998. But we don’t have our own training center. It becomes very expensive to rent a hotel or any retreat center. So, we are in the process, almost 60% we have completed but we still need around $850,000 to finish it. And once we have it then we’ll have different phases of training for 15 days or one month or three months or six months. Pastors are excited about it. They are waiting for that opportunity. >>Doug Sweeney: Sounds great! Listeners, if you want to get behind this, you may email me directly at Beeson Divinity School. I’ll be happy to put you in touch with Dr. Lama. So, AK we always like to conclude our podcast interviews by asking guests, especially guests who have been walking with the Lord for many years and have been involved in ministry leadership for decades, does God still continue to teach mature disciples after all these years new things? >>Lama: Oh yes. >>Doug Sweeney: So, I ask you, is there something you might encourage our listeners with that’s a response to the question, “What’s the Lord teaching you even now after all these years of waling with him?” >>Lama: Yeah. Again and again, Dr. Doug, as I engage with pastors and leaders, again and again, it keeps on coming back to me as I see the [inaudible 00:29:49] in the life of many leaders. Many sincere men and women of God. But they fall apart. Somewhere we have not really emphasized enough the wisdom tradition, the wisdom of life. The golden thread in the scripture which Dr. [inaudible 00:30:09] used to always talk about. >>Doug Sweeney: Yes, our mutual friend! >>Lama: Yeah. (laughs) We talk about the crimson [inaudible 00:30:14] redemptive history. We talk about many other things. But we don’t talk about the wisdom traditions. Wisdom tradition is that teaches you about how do you take care of the integrity of your heart? How do you nurture your relationship? Where you emphasize virtue more than charisma. It’s not about how much you have achieved but the question is how did you achieve that? That’s the real question. So, we have started now in our training, and the Lord has been speaking to me more on a wisdom teaching, helping our pastor [inaudible 00:30:55] to understand. Do you realize what is going to last with you? How your children or grandchildren will remember you – as a man/woman of accomplishment or a man/woman of love, selfless love, sacrifice and service. Someone who always maintained integrity in his ministry. We are all human beings. We are tempted and we want to be successful. But we don’t realize that ultimately what counts is about your success in the eyes of the Lord, not in the eyes of the people. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. You have been listening to Dr. AK Lama. Dr. Lama is an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School. We are proud to say. He is a ministry leader in a variety of ways in India and beyond, other parts of Asia, today. He is a dear friend. And he’s been here all week long ministering to our community during this Missions Emphasis Month. We call our Go Global Week. So, thank you Dr. Lama for being with us today. We’re very grateful for your time this week. >>Lama: Thank you, Dr. Doug. Thank you. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Please pray for Dr. Lama and his ministries. If you want to support them, drop me a line. We love you. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.