Beeson Podcast, Episode #677 Pastor Lyle Holland Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. I’m joined today by Lyle Holland who is Pastor of Christ Methodist Church in Florence, Alabama, and Executive Director of the Board of Ministry for the North Alabama Provisional Annual Conference of the New Global Methodist Church. In Pastor Holland’s role as Executive Director of the Board of Ministry he oversees the recruitment, evaluation, and examination, guidance, and mentoring of candidates for ordained ministry in North Alabama. Some of whom are studying right here at Beeson Divinity School. So, Pastor Holland, we thank you for your ministry and we thank you for joining us on the podcast today. >>Holland: Doug, thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to being able to talk to you for a little bit. >>Doug Sweeney: So, some of our listeners probably know you already, but for those who don’t, why don’t we introduce you to them. Tell us just a little bit about yourself, how you came to know the Lord, how you became a pastor. >>Holland: I used to joke that I was a Methodist from birth. I was born at Caraway Methodist Hospital here in Birmingham. My parents met at Rock Methodist in Tarrant. They went through MYF together. Married during college. I was, again, born here, baptized there, and raised in the Methodist Church. My home church, Knight Street in Decatur is the place where I learned about Jesus. I was nurtured and discipled just by the way people lived their faith. They modeled the faith to me. I made a commitment to Christ, came to know Jesus at a lay witness mission, which was a renewal ministry that was in the United Methodist Church back in the ‘70s and ‘80s. In my freshman year in college, after a period of drifting away, I came back to Christ. It was in my college years that I sensed a call to ministry. That was nurtured by my home church. And it was the place that I responded to the call on my life. The first place I ever preached. The first place I ever had any ministry role. So, in many ways, whether I was United Methodist, Methodist, Global Methodist – God has used the people called “Methodists” to shape me, to convert me, and to call me and deploy me into ministry. >>Doug Sweeney: That is wonderful. We want to focus most of our conversation with you today on what’s going on these days in the New Global Methodist Church. We want our folks to know about it and be praying for it and support it. We want them to know Beeson is a place where people who feel like the Lord is leading them into the pastoral ministry in the Global Methodist Church can come and prepare. But before we get to the present, tell us just a little bit about how many churches have you served over the years? What’s the shape of your ministry been like? >>Holland: Yeah. I was one of those folks that started serving churches while I was in college. I was 20 when I entered candidacy for ministry. And when that happened back then the District Superintendant might call you and say, “Are you interested in taking a church next week?” (laughter) And it almost was that quick. I went through a basic licensing school while a student in college and then in seminary I served churches here in Alabama. So, served ... I was under appointment in the United Methodist Church in one form or fashion for 40 years. As a student pastor, as an associate at First Methodist in Florence, Alabama, with youth and college ... to that solo lead pastor in a rural setting, a small church of 100-120 in worship, to being the founding pastor of a church down here in Birmingham. I pastored in Helena and planted the church at Cahaba Bend. I was there for 13 years. Then from there moved to a couple of different United Methodist congregations in which I was the senior pastor with a staff, with appointed staff and clergy as well as hired lay professional staff. And in ’23 after going through this period as the denomination was separating, in June of 2023 I withdrew my credentials from the United Methodist Church and entered ministry with the Global Methodist Church. They recognized my credentials. And I was appointed to Christ Methodist in Florence, Alabama. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. We probably got to help at least some of our listeners understand what’s been going on in recent years in the Methodist Church. You’re a great person to help with this, because you served for decades as a faithful pastor in the United Methodist Church and are now moving over to the Global Methodist Church and providing leadership there. Without getting into things that wouldn’t be super edifying, just kind of help our people get up to speed. Those who aren’t Methodist don’t know what’s been going on and why is there a Global Methodist Church these days? >>Holland: It’s a great question, Doug. And I know that those of us that lived in it think everybody knows all the details. And we were at a point where we ate, drank, slept these divisions. In the United Methodist Church pretty close to the origin of the United Methodist Church a debate developed around the question of human sexuality. How will we welcome and be in ministry with people who are LGBTQ? The denomination from ’72 forward had made a commitment to what we might call a traditional understanding related to marriage – one man, one woman. Ordination – that someone who is to be ordained is to live to the highest consideration of Christian sexual ethics. I don’t even know that I would say those should be the highest ... but what we have considered the historic traditional commitment of the Church. But that was really a presenting issue in how we found ourselves. We would see scripture from a different place. There was a division in understanding how we understand scripture, how we understood our call to offer Christ to the world. And those continued to play out. Methodists gather every four years or so for a thing called the general conference, where the polity and the shared commitments and doctrine and practice are debated and agreed upon. Some pieces as folks have always reminded me will never change. The articles of religion and that is there. But how we apply those in our work in ministry would come up for debate. And we would work, perfect, maybe adapt to context – is what we would hear. It came to a head in Portland in 2016 when because the general conference was turning into just chaos the bishops were asked to come back to the general conference with a plan to move forward. And that plan was a period of study in which they would bring a path forward to a called general conference, specifically to deal with this issue. And that general conference was called and it came together in 2019 for just a few days in St. Louis, Missouri. The result was the bishops brought what we said were three plans. There were really only two because the third one was far more complex than anybody wanted to wrestle with. One was called the One Church Plan, which would create more of a local ruling. It would allow conferences, churches to determine how they would relate to the questions around marriage and ordination. >>Doug Sweeney: And whole conferences would go one way or the other, or maybe congregations? >>Holland: Congregations. We might see, rather than geographic ... there’s a lot of pieces that were never clearly defined with that. The other plan brought forward was the traditional plan, which was, “This is who we are, this is where we have been, and now not only do we want to say “yes” this is who we are, but here are also some clear accountability measures that would be a part of that.” The 2019 general conference passed the traditional plan. And that was delegates from North America, from Europe, from Africa, from Asia. It was not a major majority, but it was a majority. And so that was passed. And even from the moment that was passed there were delegates specifically and primarily from the US who made it clear that they would not abide by that decision. They would fight it. One of our African bishops pulled together a group of thought leaders from a variety of groups, perspectives, the spectrum, and had a conversation ... started a conversation with them, “We need a plan that will allow us to separate.” It was no longer how can we stay together. A person who works specifically with large groups negotiating these types of agreements volunteered his services. What was produced from that was a thing we came to call “The Protocol.” It was essentially an agreement for how we would separate. And the expectation was that at general conference 2020 that would be the primary focus on general conference in 2020. It would be voted on and it would allow those who wanted to be a part of a traditional Methodist denomination, they could go and it would allow for annual conferences to vote at ... if I remember correctly, it was a little more than a simple majority vote. It was I believe somewhere between 54/56% ... I haven’t looked at that in a while now. So ... We really thought that’s where we were going. And the votes were there and COVID hit and eliminated general conference in ’20. We were not able to come back in ’21 or ’22 and it was in ’22 that it was announced by the United Methodist Commission on General Conference that they were now looking at 2024 for the next general conference. The feeling among many who are part of the Global Methodist Church now and specifically the leadership of the Global Methodist Church looked at this and had the sense that support for The Protocol was eroding. Some of the groups that had signed off on it helped author it had withdrawn their support and were switching their support to another plan, which would have been far more like the One Church plan that had been authored originally. That is why the Global Methodist Church launched in May of 2022. It became a legal entity with clergy and some churches. And that then began what we have seen in conferences across the US where churches using a paragraph that was produced in 2019 were pursuing an exit, a disaffiliation from the United Methodist Church. For the Global United Methodist Church, they were told ... Africans were told that the paragraph 25.53 did not apply to the churches outside the US. So, there’s a different process that they are going through. And in some cases, like in Kenya, we had 56 United Methodist Churches disaffiliate on their own – and are now in the Global Methodist Church. >>Doug Sweeney: So, overall, you’re not going to be able to nail this number down precisely, but how many people are we talking about who have left the United Methodist Church? How many congregations or members are now kind of moving into the Global Methodist Church? >>Holland: The Global Methodist Church is looking at over 3,000 churches in the US. Over 3,000 clergy, more clergy than churches. The membership numbers ... I don’t know that we have that completely compiled right now. We are still compiling that just for North Alabama. And we have some churches that have disaffiliated who wanted to sit out and take a little bit of time to decide where will we land. And so we have just recently added a few churches that disaffiliated back in December, but they wanted some time to breathe. >>Doug Sweeney: What’s all this been like for you as a pastor? I would think it’s got to be a little heart rending. You get through all the difficulty and especially if you’re a denominational leader, you’re sort of committed to leading people very positively moving forward. But what’s the last several years been like for a guy like you? >>Holland: It has been a slow motion experience of grief. Grief, knowing what is coming, not knowing exactly when it’s coming. I would not compare it to having a family member who is terminal. I wouldn’t do them that disservice, but at the same time you spend most of your life, more of your life in the United Methodist Church than not in my case. I experienced a good bit of what [inaudible 00:15:12]’s definition of the experience of grief: anger, sadness, bargaining, disbelief ... the reality was there are people in the United Methodist Church that I know and love. And we’re friends. And that’s lay people that I have served with, that is clergy who I labored alongside of, whether on the same staff or on different conference boards. And there’s grief in the loss of that connection. And in some cases grief in the loss of that relationship. Because my decision to go ended, did end a few relationships. >>Doug Sweeney: So, let’s give our listeners a little bit of feel. I know these are early days. We’re going to see what comes of the Global Methodist Church. It’s hard to describe everything with anything like finality at this point. But insofar as we can describe what the GMC is like and what you hope it will be like moving forward – what it’s priorities are going to be and so on – how would you describe it? >>Holland: We keep saying that right now we are building the bridge as we walk on it, or we’re flying the plane as we fly on it. And I think we’re flying on the plane as we try to land it right now. We’re committed to being a Wesleyan Armenian expression of historic Christianity. We remain committed to the faith that was handed down to the Saints. And a traditional ... and I say “traditional” in the best way of talking about the tradition – who was it that said traditionalism is the dead faith of the living and tradition is the living faith of the dead? We’re committed to tradition. And that is where we have our roots. We are also committed to being a denomination with low overhead, that believes that the best place for investment in ministry and places that make disciples, who make disciples, is the local church. And that the local church does not exist to support the bureaucracy of the denomination. At present, we have two active bishops for all 3,000-whatever churches. >>Doug Sweeney: Wow, that’s a big job! >>Holland: Yes! And they are not residential really to us. Our bishop is Bishop Scott Jones. Scott had been a bishop in the United Methodist Church, had taught at Perkins at SMU. And makes his home in Dallas. And so he is our bishop somewhat from a distance. He advises, he counsels, there’s times where he’s been present. He was here for our annual conference. So, when we ordained 68 people in August, he was here to be a part of that. And he provides us with that leadership. But part of the decentralization in that sense is to have your bishop is in Dallas, there’s not a brick and mortar denominational headquarters right now. When the transitional leadership council meets, and that is who is leading us in this period until we get to general conference, when they meet, they meet by Zoom. Because they’re all over. We’re thankful for technology that allows us to do that. And we don’t invest in brick and mortar nearly as much as we might have had to once upon a time. We will be a denomination that reclaims church planting. >>Doug Sweeney: You’re involved in that right now. >>Holland: I’m involved in that right now! Christ Methodist is a church plant of folks who left a church that they had been with for a long time. We share some of the same type of experience of grief, of leaving, and yet the excitement of being part of something new. And we have folks who have been surrounded by beautiful hardwood and stained glass in their sanctuaries who are now meeting in a rented space for worship. And they love it. >>Doug Sweeney: So, on the one hand, you’re the traditionalists who have left because the United Methodist Church isn’t traditional like it used to be. So, you could ... if you just stop there, you might leave listeners thinking, “Well, this is like the Methodists were 50 years ago.” But it’s not, because there’s so much that’s different! Technologically, there’s so much different among just in terms of priorities and leaders, given the experience that they’ve had the last decade or so ... >>Holland: Yeah, the misnomer, the use of the word “traditional” conjures up different things for different people, doesn’t it? For a lot of Methodists it conjured up a specific worship style. And right now in North Alabama our churches that are in the Global Methodist Church range from one church that is almost Anglican in their preferences and style of worship, to churches that are very contemporary, committed to modern worship with a band and jeans and the senior pastor ... the only time you would see him in a tie is during the week when something tragic has happened. But you would never see him like that on Sunday morning. And they’re engaging young families and young couples. And sending people in mission globally, in teams and groups. We have a couple of churches here in the Birmingham area, Christ Methodist, for one in particular who I know you’ve had a few students come through from Christ. >>Doug Sweeney: Yes, and Matt O’Reilly is here on campus all the time. >>Holland: Yes, Matt is here. And they’re commitment to global missions, and being a fissional people here in Birmingham as well, understanding that, yes, they’re a suburban church, but they are a Birmingham church. They have a commitment to the city that is really inspiring. And I wish and hope that many of our folks would get to hear that and see that and be challenged by it. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. All right. So, now let’s ask a question or two that might help some of our current students or prospective students who tune into the podcast try to get a feel for Beeson. You’re running the board of ministry for our region. That means you play a special role in kind of coaching the up and comers in the Global Methodist Church. What are you looking for in a Global Methodist Pastor? What are the priorities that people like you have in their minds when they’re coaching, guiding, shaping the next generation of ministers in your denomination? >>Holland: I’ve said this so many times, but I will say it again. We do want people who have a clear commitment to a Wesleyan/Armenian understanding of the faith. I know that words like evangelical have been sullied in some places. It’s turned into more of a political statement. But to be a person who is committed to bearing the good news. And as a Wesleyan/Armenian who believes that God’s grace is offered to all. And you bring the good news. And then there is a the opportunity for anyone and everyone to say “yes” to God’s salvation and a salvation that is not just that first “yes” but it continues through life. That God’s grace is what sanctifies as we cooperate with Him. The other pieces ... I look for folks who have a heart for making disciples, who do not see their role as someone who comes to a church and just takes care of those who are present. They’ll embrace Wesley’s famous motto “the world is my parish.” Which of course that was his statement when he was told he couldn’t preach in this parish anymore, and he was barred from ... I believe it was even his home church Epworth. He said, “the world is my parish.” I go wherever God calls me to go and preach the gospel. So, to understand that they may be serving a church but that church is the base of mission operation in that community. And they have a heart for that. That doesn’t mean they know how to do it completely, but they have a heart for it and if they have a heart for it we’ll find a way to connect them with people who will mentor them, train them, and help them find ways of being effective in that setting. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Some of our listeners will know, and all the current students at Beeson who take classes from Dr. Pasquarello who holds our Methodist Chair here know, that biblical holiness has long been a hallmark of Methodist Churches as well. When non Methodists hear that they don’t always know what that means. Help us out a little bit. What’s the kind of biblical holiness that good Methodists are calling the rest of us to account for? >>Holland: Yeah. You used to hear the phrase, “Christian perfection” or to be made perfect in love. And then even that phrase, “perfection” creates questions. Perfectionism. When we talk about being made holy, I love Wesley’s definition – talking about ... a Methodist is someone who loves God with their whole heart and mind, soul and strength. It’s living out the Shama in such a way ... or as Scott McKnight calls it, “The Jesus creed.” ... in such a way that we love God with our whole ... we love our neighbors. And that becomes our primary motivation. And that’s what moves our life. Is there still a possibility that even in that place you’ll sin? Yes. Obviously. But the intent, the trajectory of your heart and your mind is to love God fully with all you are. There has been in our history some who will say that’s a second work of grace in the Wesleyan/Armenia history. And other will say, no, it is a progressive, each stage. I think all of us have had moments in our life, following Christ, in which it was not a simply one step forward, but something ... God used something or we had an experience in a place in which we took a leap forward. And God got access to our hearts and minds in ways that we did not expect. And it was transformative. So, my argument would be whether you want to say it’s a second work of grace and that defining second crisis kind of experience, or whether it is something that over time God shapes me and redeems me in a way in which I come to reflect the image of Jesus more and more in my life. However it happens, the most important thing is that it happens. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. And the Lord exhorts us to make it happen. >>Holland: Absolutely. >>Doug Sweeney: All bible Christians should say that, huh? >>Holland: Yes. Absolutely. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Let’s try to bring this all the way home to Beeson if we can, just for a minute before we conclude. So, we said at the top of the show Beeson is now a recognized, authorized seminary for the Global Methodist Church. So, what does that mean? And if you’re a current Beeson student who is trying to figure out – does the Lord have this for me? Or a prospective student thinking maybe the Lord is going to lead me into ministry in the Global Methodist Church – what could Beeson do to facilitate that? >>Holland: Yeah. We are so appreciative to Beeson for stepping into this relationship with us because the Global Methodist Church has a clear curriculum path in an MDIV toward ordination. And I don’t know where the conversations happen here, you can talk about that. But it was clear that Beeson has an intention of saying, “How can we partner with this new denomination and this movement?” So, early agreement and approval from the GMC that this would be a recommended education partner. There is some courses, Wesleyan Theology, Polity, History of the Church ... and I know that Mike Pasquarello will definitely touch on sacramental theology. All of those things that we need. But we also are excited about the interdenominational aspect that Beeson brings for students who come to us into the Global Methodist Church to have that type of exposure to classically trained orthodox respected scholars who are Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, who bring these aspects to the table as well ... to enrich us. Because despite what the world was like when I was born in ’61, just because you were a Methodist does not mean that you would always be a Methodist. And just because you are a Baptist or Presbyterian does not mean you’ll always be there. We have in many of our churches people who have started in one place and have ended up somewhere else. >>Doug Sweeney: A lot of young adults these days ... a lot of seminary students these days kind of move into a new denominational home. >>Holland: Yeah. So, you have that happening, and then you also just have the reality that we are engaging a far less churched culture. And those brands, those tribal definitions don’t matter as much. They don’t matter to our neighbors and those who are on the outside of our tribe, as much as it does for us on the inside of the tribe. So, for me, that commitment that Beeson has made is vital because we had not had in the UM a educational partner right here in the heart of the state. And I know Montgomery is the capital, but Birmingham is the heart of Alabama. And I recognize that Beeson is offering a real gift here. How can they learn more? You have Methodist studies chair with Mike Pasquarello. I had already mentioned Christ Methodist where Matt O’Reilly is. We have just in the Birmingham area an easy drive from campus – Christ Methodist, Mountain Chapel over in Vestavia Hills, Clear Branch out in the Trussville area, First Methodist Trussville, First Methodist Hueytown, and I know as soon as I start doing this I am going to blank ... and more! (laughter) So, there are a number of churches in our area that are having good vital ministry that reflect I think the wealth that is right now in the Global Methodist Church. And would be a great place for students to have kind of a come and see experience. Go, see, taste. I promise you if you walked up to the pastor at Clear Branch or Trussville First, or Christ, or Mountain Chapel, and said, “Hi, I’m a student at Beeson. I’m interested in what’s happening. I want to learn more about the Global Methodist Church, and this church in particular.” Not only would they say, “Let’s grab lunch tomorrow. Let’s find time to sit down.” But, welcome them into getting a real feel and flavor of the church and an opportunity to connect. And to me that is the first step for any student. Anyone who is considering coming into the Global Methodist Church, if they don’t have that background. I think you need to have a feel for what are you joining and not just what someone like I can say, “Hey, here we are. This is what we do. You wanna sign up?” But to go there. To become part of that church. And then from there would enter a phase of discernment – we call it candidacy. I don’t think that’s unique to us. I think everybody has a candidacy process. But they would enter a candidacy and if through that period, a six month period of candidacy they become clear that God is calling them to ministry in the Global Methodist Church, ordained or not ordained, but ordination is where it comes to me – then the personnel committee of the church would meet with them, then recommend them, and then they would move forward with us in that process. Our ordination process is a two step. If you are going to be an elder in the Global Methodist Church, you will be ordained a deacon first. And that can happen ... a person can be ordained a deacon while they are still in seminary. After they have completed I think six of our required deacon level courses, similar to when I came through where I had to finish I think a full third or two thirds of seminary work I was able to be ordained prior to finishing seminary. But they could be ordained a deacon while still in seminary. Finish seminary and then apply and sit through the process of being approved and recommended for ordination as an elder. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Just for the sake of the non Methodist listeners ... being an elder, if you’re Methodist, is a little bit different from being an elder in some other denominational contexts. What is an elder for a Methodist? >>Holland: Thank you. In the United Methodist church an elder is a clergy order. My mother-in-law was an elder in the Presbyterian Church my wife grew up in. So, I should have ... >>Doug Sweeney: A little bit of a different job. >>Holland: A little different job. An elder would be ordained toward order and sacrament. That is the pastor in charge in a church. An elder is a person who would also be considered at some point to have leadership at other levels within the denomination. As an elder, you could be selected and invited to serve as a presiding elder which is our version of a district superintendant. Elders are then eligible also to be elected as a bishop at some point. So, there is a difference in that. Deacon we believe is a valid order and it’s not just a stepping stone to elder. We have folks that are ordained deacons and they remain deacons. They’re a full deacon and that’s God’s call in their life – to serve the church, to serve the world, and to connect the church to the world. One of my favorite deacons right now in North Alabama is a young man that his place of serve is as a history teacher and wrestling coach in a public school. And it is his opportunity to be in ministry in that place. And the school knows it. And they support that. And he helps connect us into that school in some ways that we wouldn’t have entre to the lives of those families any other way. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Well, Pastor Holland, thank you very much for being with us. I do have one final really important practical question for you. But before I ask it, I want to remind our listeners and those who listen all the time will remember this, but we had Dr. Pasquarello our Methodist Chair on the show just a few months ago. And he laid out for us what the Wesleyan Certificate looks like here at Beeson Divinity School. The Wesleyan Track of Study that helps Beeson students whom the Lord is leading towards ministry in ... well, we serve a few different Wesleyan churches. The Wesleyan church, Church of the Nazarene, Methodist Church, and so on. But if you’re in one of those traditions, this track is for you. And basically you use your elective hours to prepare for ordained ministry in a Wesleyan Church like this Global Methodist Church. So, Beeson is becoming a more and more helpful place all the time for such folks. And listeners, if you or someone you love would be a great fit in the Global Methodist Church in particular, please let us know. We’ll take good care of them. We’ll get the plugged into a good Global Methodist Church here in town, they’ll come under the supervision of a pastor. We’ll introduce them to Pastor Holland and in all kinds of ways, including an internship way – we call it a practicum way. They’ll be prepared for the kind of ministry that Pastor Holland has described. All right, Lyle. We always end these podcasts interviews the same way. It’s more fun I think to end them this way with somebody who has been faithful in walking with the Lord and serving His church for as many years as you have. The concluding question is always – is the Lord still teaching you things? What is the Lord doing in your life these days that you might offer to our listeners as a kind of concluding word of encouragement to them? >>Holland: I think the Lord is teaching me ... maybe reminding me is a better way of talking about it. Because I sometimes have to go back to lessons that I feel like I should have learned. It may sound simple, but to understand that my life in Christ is not something that I achieve. But it’s something I receive. It comes to me by grace. It comes to all of us by grace. And perhaps it’s because I’ve been preaching through Ephesians this fall. But living in that. Yes, there’s effort as we learn to cooperate with God’s grace at work in our life, by intentional practices. But it’s never something I can claim as “this is what I have accomplished.” The gift of that is to understand that my identity in Christ is not something that I am responsible to build and polish up. But as one who has been adopted by a Father, that is who I am first. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a wonderful word. And listeners, that’s who you are first as well, if you have placed your faith in Christ. You have been listening to Pastor Lyle Holland. He serves Christ Methodist Church in Florence. The reason we’ve invited him to be on the podcast today is he’s also executive director of the Board of Provisional Annual Ministry for the New Global Methodist Church. And he’s the one in our region who takes good care of, looks after up and coming people like the people at Beeson Divinity School who are interested in the possibility of being ordained to pastoral ministry in the Global Methodist Church. So, he’s a good person to know. Thank you, Lyle, for being with us. >>Holland: Doug, thank you for having me with you to be on here today. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. As ever, we love you. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. 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