Beeson Podcast, Episode #686 Dr. Gerald Bray Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. I’m joined today by my friend, Dr. Gerald Bray – Beeson’s research professor of Divinity. Dr. Bray has been a staple here at Beeson Divinity School for many years. He teaches in the area of historical theology. For a long time he served as our Anglican Chair of Divinity. He continues to teach very profitably for us. He also continues to serve as a prolific author. He’s recently released yet another new book entitled, “A Companion to the Book of Common Prayer.” Which we want to introduce you to today. Dr. Bray, thank you very much for being with us. >>>Dr. Bray: Thank you very much for having me. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, we all know this isn’t the first time you have been on the Beeson Podcast. But having said that I don’t want to presume that everybody listening now knows about you already. So, why don’t we begin by introducing you to them? Tell us just a little bit about how you became a Christian, how you became involved in ministry, and what got you all the way to Beeson Divinity School? >>Dr. Bray: Thank you very much. I was born and brought up in a church-going family. Which was a great blessing for me because I went to Sunday School from a very early age. Unlike a lot of people I took to it. I really liked it. The particular Sunday School that I went to was very strict. Not the sort of kindergarten stuff that you get nowadays. We had to memorize large chunks of the bible. I had to memorize the whole of Romans, Ephesians, and other New Testament books. One chapter at a time. We were catechized and it was a very serious business. I’m talking about when I was seven, eight, nine years old. Not even a teenager. So, I had a very good foundation in that way. But like a lot of people who were brought up in the church, it’s very difficult to know how much of it is something that you take for granted because that’s the way you’ve been brought up. And how much of it is really personal to you. I mean, I had all the background and so on, but it was when I was about 14 or so ... I remember hearing somebody talk about being born again as a Christian. I wasn’t terribly sure what that meant in particular. But afterwards I was thinking about it and I went home and read by bible. I found in Matthew’s gospel where Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It was actually the Sadducees rather than the Pharisees because the Sadducees didn’t believe in the resurrection. So, Jesus said, well, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and he is not the God of the dead but of the living. Although this was completely out of context and it’s not what the bible verse means, it struck me in a way that suddenly I woke up and thought, “I am dead. I’m one of the dead.” And I don’t know why it hit me that way, but it did. I got on my knees and I just asked the Lord to come into my life and make it real for me. That’s how that happened. Of course, I had all the background. So, I knew what it was all about. But yes. The thing that I discovered when that happened ... of course, my life changed in ways that I didn’t really realize at the time because I mean I was only a teenager and of course you just go on living and you don’t really think about those things very much. But other people noticed. And I suddenly discovered hostility from people. Particularly within my own family. You see, there are people who were quite happy that I should go to church as a child. But church was something you grew out of as you got older. That was all right for a time, but you move on. And I didn’t. And so this wasn’t regarded very highly. When I chose my sort of higher educational aims and so on other people were trying to turn me into a lawyer or something like this – usually someone who would make a lot of money. I wasn’t going that way. That was a difficulty that I had to confront. Not anything that I invited. I wasn’t deliberately obnoxious or anything like that. It was just this is what happened. It came to me. That sort of opposition. And I had to struggle against it. In my early years as a Christian, my fellowship and support came mainly from parachurch organizations. Christian Fellowship at high school and then in university. And again, I was very well placed because I happened to find myself among a group of people who were very good Christian people, and dedicated. I’m still in touch with many of them, and some of them have gone on to great things. It’s quite astonishing when your teenage companions suddenly become famous. >>Doug Sweeney: Did you go to university intending to do ministry vocationally or you weren’t sure? >>Dr. Bray: I wasn’t sure. I went to university and I read classics in Latin and Greek, which of course is a great foundation for that. No, I wasn’t particularly thinking of ministry. I didn’t really know what I was going to be doing. But it was after I graduated from university that I then went to do doctoral studies in Parish. And it was when I was in Paris that I actually joined a church as an adult for the first time. It was there that I got formation in church life as opposed to Sunday School, in an adult church. >>Doug Sweeney: Which church did you join? >>Dr. Bray: I joined the English Church in Paris, the Anglican Church there. Excellent ministry. From there I went to Cambridge to study Theology. It was more directed then. But I still wasn’t terribly sure about ministry. Or what I would end up doing. But it was in the summer jobs that I had and so on, mixing with ordinary people, not academic type people, church people particularly. Every once in a while someone would come up to me and say, “You’re studying for the ministry aren’t you?” And I would say, “No, not really.” They say, “But you’re that type.” I thought, “Oh, what type is that?” But then gradually I realized that this was God’s sort of way of indicating to me that there was something there I needed to consider. Gradually it sort of dawned on me and I did consider it. I applied for ordination training and was ordained in 1978. Then I went to serve in a parish in London for two years. In the docks of London, completely different environment from what I’d ever done before. And it was when I was there that I was invited to go and teach at a college. I didn’t ask for the invitation. In fact, I can honestly say all the jobs I’ve ever applied for I never got. And all the jobs I’ve had have come to me. >>Doug Sweeney: Is that right? >>Dr. Bray: Yes. Right through my life. This was one, you see. I went to give a few lectures at the college. I don’t know quite how they found out about me. But they did anyway. So, I went. The students got a petition out to have me come on the faculty. I had been invited to- >>Doug Sweeney: It worked! >>Dr. Bray: Yes, it worked. Students say that the faculty never listen to them. But this was one case where that happened. I really liked it afterwards because every time anyone complained about anything I would just simply say, “Well, I didn’t apply for this job, you gave it to me whether I wanted it or not.” And so that was good. So, I taught in London for 12 years. And then I was offered a research job in Oxford. It was contingent on money. You know as well as I do when things are contingent on money, anything can happen. So, this was sort of hanging in the air for a bit. But I had some time on my hands, I supposed you’d have to say, and one day I got a fax – it came from Beeson Divinity School, of which I had never heard, asking me to come to Beeson for a semester to teach. So, I thought, well, I could do that. This job is sort of up in the air and it wasn’t clear what was going to happen. So, I accepted. I came and- >>Doug Sweeney: Did you know anybody at Beeson at that time in your life? >>Dr. Bray: Not a soul. I had in fact been in Alabama before. But that was driving from Jacksonville, Florida to New Orleans. So, I’d gone through Mobile. And that was as much of Alabama as I’d ever seen. So, I had seen it before. And in 1990 I had been a visiting scholar at the General Theological Seminary in New York. So, I did in fact have experience of living and working in an American seminary. And I was actually interim pastor of the oldest church in New York that is still functioning. Which is the French congregation [inaudible 00:11:58] congregation which has been there since 1628. So, I did that. >>Doug Sweeney: You did that while you were teaching in New York? >>Dr. Bray: While I was teaching in New York. Yes. And it was very strange how these things work out because in order to pay me I had to get a social security card. So, they gave me one of those. I had that. And I had to open a bank account. That was another thing. Various things like this. I thought I don’t know what I’m going to do when I go back home. What’s going to happen here? But you know, you get these things, you keep them in your pocket, and that’s that. When I came to Beeson, of course, I had all of this. Because they said, “Do you have a work permit?” I said, well, I’ve got all of this documents and that. So, they were quite happy about that. But I had no intention of staying. It was after three weeks that the dean offered me a job. I wasn’t expecting it at all. I turned him down initially. I said, “Well, I’ve got this other job that’s sort of hanging, I can’t really just ignore that.” So, we kind of left it hanging for a while, but then by a series of accidents, really, I suppose you’d have to say ... sort of God governed accidents, the job in Oxford fell apart. The money wasn’t there basically. It’s a long story, but anyhow I realized that this wasn’t going to work. So, I wrote to the people and they said they’ll try to find the funding. Blah, blah, blah. We’ll see what happens. I said, well actually, no, I’m going to pull out of that for now because it just didn’t seem to be working properly. So, then I went back to the dean at Beeson and said, “Well, I’m free now. I can come.” So, I did. The first year at Beeson I hated every minute of it. Not because of Beeson. I mean, Beeson was fine. But I was out of my comfort zone. I was in a strange place. I didn’t know anybody. I didn’t have anything to do. Settling in a new place when you’re not young anymore. >>Doug Sweeney: What year was this? >>Dr. Bray: This was 1993. Yes, I came on the first of February. So, it will be, just now, 31 years since I arrived. And my first semester at Beeson was the year of the big snow storm. We had 14 inches of snow in one night at spring break. Everybody was a prisoner on campus for an entire week. We couldn’t get off. Yes. I thought, “Well, I’ve seen Birmingham at its worst.” Which is true. You know? (laughter) >>Doug Sweeney: And you saw Beeson at a very early stage in its development. >>Dr. Bray: Very early stage. We weren’t in the present building. No, it was very early. It was a very small school. There was a real pioneer spirit about it. I look back on those days and it’s very difficult because from one point of view you say, well, the school has grown and it’s become a much more solid thing than it was in those days, which is true. And of course I’m very grateful to the Lord for that. And I think it’s wonderful what’s happened. >>Doug Sweeney: But it was also fun. >>Dr. Bray: It was also fun. >>Doug Sweeney: Being here in the early years and being one of the pioneers. >>Dr. Bray: Right. And also we were much more closely connected to each other because it was sink or swim. There was nothing to rely on. There was no reputation and so on. >>Doug Sweeney: Who were the faculty then? >>Dr. Bray: Well, we had Ken Matthews who has just retired. Frank Thielman who is still here. Timothy George, of course, who is around. And then Richard Wells who has gone away. Fisher Humphreys was teaching. >>Doug Sweeney: Already in ’93 he was here? Okay. >>Dr. Bray: Yes, he was here teaching theology. I think that was it really. The core. We could club together and we were very close in many ways. We were all on the opposite side of campus then. I have to say, we were in a building which never flooded. So, there were advantages! (laughter) So, that was that. I watched when the present building was being built. I was, for better or for worse, the chair of the committee which chose what we call the Sweet 16, the people who are in the dome. So, I got to know quite a lot about Beeson and the way people think and so on when we did that. >>Doug Sweeney: Were they calling you the Anglican Chair already at that time? >>Dr. Bray: Yes. I came as the Anglican Professor of Divinity. Because Mr. Beeson had set that up. So, it was deliberate. But of course there had never been such a person before. And I was suspect from two angles. The university which was at that time still much more Baptist than it is now. Much more closely connected with the Alabama State Baptist Convention. And they wondered what’s this peculiar person coming here? It was because of Mr. Beeson more than any other reason. The Episcopal Church, which thought, “Who is this being parachuted in from goodness knows where?” Because I didn’t know any of them either. So, I had to spend the first couple of years just reassuring people that I wasn’t as bad as they thought. >>Doug Sweeney: After you got settled in, mid ‘90s, late ‘90s, you’ve always been somebody who has been pretty well known in academic circles, you published a lot. You could have gone somewhere else. But you didn’t. >>Dr. Bray: Yes, I was pursued by various institutions. I had to decide what to do. That was a kind of crises point in my own life because I thought, what am I actually doing? And I realized that in my own self that my career such as it was, was a vocation – not a job. And one particular institution I said, well, I’ve only been at Beeson a couple of years and I don’t feel I can leave them so soon. And they said, we’ll buy you out with something like this. I thought, well, I’m not a commodity. I don’t want to be bought out, thank you very much. And so I said, no, that’s not right. I mean, if I’m committed to this place it’s my vocation, not my job. It is a job in one sense, of course, but it’s more than that. And I appreciated very much what Beeson wanted to be. An interdenominational evangelical school of theology with a strong emphasis on pastoral training men and women for pastoral ministry. Also for other things. I mean, we’ve trained people for academics but a very sort of broad thing. But also a relatively small school as schools go. You could get to know everybody and so on. That suited me just fine. That’s what I liked. I managed to develop good relations with faculty but also with students as they came and went. I still maintain connections as far as I can with alumni. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh sure. I know that well. >>Dr. Bray: Yes. >>Doug Sweeney: You stuck around mostly because you felt like God wanted you here, a sense of calling to this place. From just a more mundane, human point of view, what were some of the features about Beeson, even in the early years when it was pretty small and there was more potential that hadn’t yet been actualized. There was a vision and a hope. We were trying to become something but hadn’t quite done it yet. What kept you around? >>Dr. Bray: Well, the sense that ... one of the things I was called to do was to further that vision. (laughs) You do get people who will go somewhere and it’s not what they were expecting. And so they turn around and walk away. And I think to myself, no, that’s not th4e way we should do it. I mean, if it’s not what you’re expecting – well, it depends on the circumstances of course – but in Beeson’s case, we were still in the formative stages, formative years. But it has the potential to become what I wanted it to be and what everybody wanted it to be. It wasn’t just my eccentric idea. Whereas if I walk away and say, well, it’s not what I expected ... I expected something far more developed people would have looked and said, “Well, what do you expect, you were brought here in order to help it develop. And now you’re running away from what you were called to do.” I thought, well, no, that’s not right. I need to stay here and commit to working out this vision. I felt it would be wrong to leave at that stage. It’s the same of course with anything. People get married and get tired of it after two or three years. They’re not prepared to work at it. But you have to. (laughs) Because it’s a commitment. It’s something you have to do. I felt like that with Beeson. If I’m just going to complain about it’s not giving me what I want, or expect or something, and I’m not prepared to make my contribution then I would be in the wrong. I’ve always felt that. And ever since, we’ve been through ups and downs, we’ve made our mistakes. I’ve made mistakes. You have to turn around and say, yes, we tried that and it didn’t work and we tried something else and it didn’t work. Okay, but that’s not the end of life. You have to move on. I look back now, after more than 30 years and of course what stands out and what you see is how much has gone well and how much God has blessed us in different ways. When you’re actually in it on a day to day basis of course it is very hard to judge this because you can’t see the future, you don’t know what’s going to happen. But when you look back and I look at some of the students I’ve known over the years and what they’re doing now – many have gone on to very impressive careers. Some of them quite prominent in academic or church life. Others perhaps less prominent but still very satisfying and successful. Others have gone into other walks of life in different ways. But we reconnect. Just very recently we had an alumnus come and preach in chapel. And a student who I knew very well of course when he was a student and I’ve kept up with over the years off and on. We got together sort of secretly afterwards because it wasn’t in the program. We weren’t supposed to meet. But he came and found me. And we had a wonderful afternoon together. We just picked up where we left off last time. And there’s a friendship/relationship which somehow goes deeper than that because it’s in the Lord and in the ministry and the vocation that we share. Then I realize, well, this is what’s been happening. This is the way it is. I look back and I feel now I’ve been here a long time and the last couple of years there have been a lot of changes which were bound to happen. Everything happens, it was going to happen anyway. And I’m glad to have been here to see it. Not that you don’t have some regrets of course but we’re all getting on. And things move on and I say to people now, I’m in a very difficult time of life. They say, “What do you mean?” And I say, well, I’m too old to have a regular job but not old enough to be president. (laughter) What do you do? In a kind of no man’s land. You know? But I look through that and I think what should I be doing? What should my main contribution be? And I think it’s very much a ministry of encouragement to people. Because I’m talking to people who are a third of my age. I could be their grandparent. In a way I suppose I am. That’s the way they would see me. In some ways. But I can tell them because you know when you’re young and something goes wrong in your life it’s a major tragedy because you can’t see where things are headed. If your engagement breaks up or if your job falls apart or something like that. People can feel it very badly. I get alongside people like that and say, “Look, it’s not the end of the world. God hasn’t brought you this far in order to abandon you now.” And seminary life is the time when things would be sorted out in your life. And that’s the preparation, the real preparation for ministry. Because you may have brought baggage with you from wherever. I said I don’t know what it is and I’m not trying to poke my nose into your affairs, but there may be issues that you have to sort out in your life. And this is the time to do it so that you can go out prepared. If God is closing one particular door or pointing you in a direction that you might not have previously considered then this is the place for that, where that should happen. So, I think that’s a very valuable ministry and a very important thing. And to encourage people and say, you know, it could be worse. But also it’s going to be better. I mean, you’ll come through this and you’ll come through this stronger than you are. I spend a lot of time listening to students preach. And try to help to say how I feel about it and so on. >>Doug Sweeney: And it means the world to a young preacher when somebody at your stage of life is an encouragement. >>Dr. Bray: Well, that’s what I think. And I said if I have to say something, say, critical in some way. It’s better that it come from me than come from a board of deacons or somebody in the church who are going to fire you. You know? (laughs) Strange things happen you see for instance, some people have the idea that they have to tell jokes in the pulpit to get the crowd worked up. And all right, you can do that. I have a sense of humor, so I do that sometimes, but there are certain things you don’t joke about. One of them is Hell. I remember hearing a sermon somebody preached on Hell and they made a joke of it. And I said, sorry, you can’t do that. There are some subjects that are just too serious. By all means, use a sense of humor when it is appropriate. But in this case it’s not. This is the place where you can say that to people and it’s not the end of the world. So, things like that. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh, Gerald, your ministry here has just been immense and I know very few people whose so-called retirement years have been as fruitful for the Lord, for the Church, for the Kingdom as yours have been. Your ongoing interpersonal ministry to students which we’ve just talked about, your ongoing teaching ministry, your ongoing writing ministry has been a tremendous blessing to us as Beeson but to lots of other folks as well. >>Dr. Bray: Well, yes. You see, I took early retirement not because I was fed up with teaching but because I was fed up sitting on committees. >>Doug Sweeney: There are many faculty members who relate to this right here. >>Dr. Bray: That’s right. Well, the reality of academic life now is that it’s become much more bureaucratized than it used to be. And the higher up you arise on the ladder the more committees you end up sitting on, the more you do admin rather than actual teaching in a classroom. So, I thought, well, I don’t really see myself doing this. So, I pulled back from that. I’m still interested of course in what goes on in many ways and I’m not trying to say that I won’t do administrative work if I’m asked to and I have to, that’s fine. But it’s given me time to write. It’s given me time to minister in different ways. Pastorally and ... I wouldn’t have been anything like as productive as I have been if I hadn’t done that. So, I said well I’ve only got so much time on earth. And the time is running out. Redeem the time, say the scriptures. Count each day as if it were your last. And make sure that you are using it in the right way. That’s what I’ve tried to do. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you for doing it. One of the things we mentioned at the beginning of our conversation is that you continue to be a productive scholar and a writer. Even just since I’ve been here doing these podcast episodes we’ve talked a few times about new books that you’ve published. The latest is a companion to the Book of Common Prayer. I bet most of our listeners have at least heard of the Book of Common Prayer before. Just for people who aren’t Anglican, can you tell us a little bit about ... what is the Book of Common Prayer? Tell us a little bit about its history and then we’ll see what you’re doing in this particular book here. >>Dr. Bray: Well, the Book of Common Prayer of course was introduced in England in the mid 16th century. It came about because the reformation in England was different from the reformation in other countries. In Germany with Martin Luther, in France or the French speaking world with John Calvin, people like this – it was more of a kind of ... I wouldn’t say grassroots because you wouldn’t say Luther was grassroots really. But it came from within the church itself and spread that way. Through preaching and teaching ministry and so on. The people who were won to it were won by the preaching and teaching. That’s why people became Lutheran or became Calvinist or whatever it is they became. Whereas in England it wasn’t. In England the reformation came about because the King wanted his marriage annulled so that he could marry somebody else and have a son, have an heir to the throne. So, the complications resulting from that led him to break with the papacy, which wasn’t prepared to annul his marriage in the way that he wanted it annulled. And England woke up the next day as a so-called protestant country with no protestants in it, or very few. So, right from the beginning the Church of England basically had to convert its own people. And it still does. I mean, that’s what it is. And so you have to understand they produced books of sermons to be preached because the priests in the church had no idea. They could barely read, never mind preach. So, they were given that to preach. Catechisms were devised and of course where were you going to get these things? Well, mainly from Luther or from Calvin. I mean, they imported a great deal. The prayer book was the same. Most of it you can find has some kind of antecedent in other protestant countries. But it was a teaching medium. It was meant to teach people how to pray and this may seem odd to us but you read the New Testament and what did the disciples say to Jesus? They said, “Lord, teach us how to pray.” It was when they said that, that he gave them the Lord’s Prayer. So, this is something that has to be taught. This is what the prayer book tries to do. Over the years, of course, various things have happened. I mean, some people have said, “Well, it’s rote repetition. Vain repetition.” People just saying things they don’t mean. It goes in one ear and out the other. As you get that reaction rather than something spontaneous from the heart. You get other people who are wedded to it because it’s 16th century English. You’ve got other people who like it because to them it seems as if the reformation never actually happened, which is a complete misunderstanding at what it was meant to do. And so it goes. All kinds of arguments about it one way or another. In the 19th century this became divisive within the church itself. And people wrote commentaries on the Book of Common Prayer. There’s even a dictionary which was produced. They represented different schools of thought. But from the evangelical standpoint, from the Reformed standpoint, the last book that did this that actually guided people through the prayer book and pointed out what it was all about was written in 1912 and the second edition came out a year later in 1913 because it sold very well. And it was re-printed until 1963. It’s gone out of print now. But that’s all there was. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, it’s about time we had another. >>Dr. Bray: Because there’s been a lot of liturgical revision and so on in the 20th century and recent times the ecumenical movement ... a lot of the controversies that were raging 100+ years ago have disappeared or changed their character. And we’re much more open to other things now. I mean, to give you one example where the prayer book is very much a child of its time. The baptismal liturgies – there were two. One for the public baptism of infants and one for the private baptism of infants. Well, the people who devised the prayer book, they didn’t believe in the private baptism of infants. But this was a compromise because a lot of people weren’t prepared to go into the church and have their children baptized. So, they had to allow for that even though they weren’t terribly happy about it. And of course in a day in age when infant mortality rates were extremely high you couldn’t necessarily wait even until Sunday, the child might not survive. So, you could see the logic behind it. But there was no rite of baptism for adults. It was only in 1662, 110-112 years after the initial prayer book came out, that they put one in saying we have to do this partly because of overseas expansion. And in the colonies natives, adults, are becoming Christian. And they have to be baptized. And partly also because sectarian groups like Baptists and what have you were coming on the scene and they were not baptizing infants. And so a rite for the baptism of adults was needed. >>Doug Sweeney: Is there a simple way to characterize the changes in the prayer book over the centuries? I think there are many lay people who know enough about the prayer book and its history to know there have been changes and our ministers talk about various editions. And there’s some controversy sometimes lying under the surface there. But they don’t know much about these changes and how interested they should be in them. What do they need to know about that? >>Dr. Bray: Well, they need to know why the changes were made. I mean, just giving you a case in point. And how they should relate to this because today, of course, if you take the baptism question – everybody would agree with whatever denomination you are that the baptism of adults is primary and the baptism of children is read off that as an extension. Which in the 16th, 17th century they didn’t believe or they didn’t realize. So, that’s one thing. The changes, yes, I mean, in the companion that I’ve written I’ve detailed all the changes as they’ve occurred. And usually it depends on what the changes are but if for example a prayer or some particular thing has been altered partially I will have the old wording in one font and the new wording in a different font so that you can see immediately how it was altered. And follow on like that. Then an explanation as to what it actually meant and why. So, this is why it’s called a companion to the Book of Common Prayer because you can take the one you’ve got in front of you now and go to this and see what the original was. And how its moved on since then. Yes, I mean, it’s a very educative thing from that point of view. It’s mainly intended for students and pastors and interested lay people who want to ... or who need to, if they’re ministering, know what the background is. Because you get a lot of people that in total ignorance will say something or other. And they don’t know. They just don’t know. >>Doug Sweeney: Right. Even clergy. >>Dr. Bray: Oh, especially! (laughter) That’s the embarrassing thing. I don’t blame them, because you’re sitting in a class in seminary, what are the chances that your lecturer is going to tell you those things? Well, 50/50. What are the chances that you’re going to remember it? Probably zero. So, it’s useful to have that. >>Doug Sweeney: It sure is. So, what else are you doing for everybody in that volume? What else is in it? >>Dr. Bray: Well, it goes through all the services and it shows the pattern of how it’s laid out, how it’s meant to ... really it’s meant to take a pattern of worship which originated in the mediaeval monasteries – and adapt them for everyday use by ordinary people who are not monks. So, you have your daily prayer, morning and evening. You have a regular scriptural reading. Because it was only in the Reformation, people don’t realize this, that regular bible reading – starting with Genesis and ending up in Revelation was actually developed. People were expected to read the bible right the way through. It was only then that the Psalter came into use in the way that we’re used to now. I mean, the Psalms of course were always there, but what they use to do was take odd verses here and there and use them in the prayers and that. But the idea of reciting a complete Psalm and going through them on a regular basis and making that the hymnal of the church, really, and doing this was a novelty at the time of the Reformation. So, it’s pointing this out and saying, well, it may be true that we have new translations of the bible, we’ve moved on in some ways, but the principle, the pattern, the intention of the original is still there. It is to grow in Christ, to be grounded in the Word of God. And the prayer book is really the bible turned into worship. And connected like this and trying to get people to see this. And especially at a time when in church life we’re facing a generation which is increasingly uneducated in these things. Even the people who go to church. They haven’t been brought up with that deep knowledge of the bible. This is part of our culture. I’m not blaming anybody. This is just what’s happened. And we need to go back to this, cultivating the memory, making people see that depth matters, and that it’s what you absorb in your heart that stays there and comes back to refresh you as time goes on. >>Doug Sweeney: Do you advocate ... I’ve known a bunch of people over the years who will use the prayer book even for person devotions. Most people use it in church for worship. Some people use it in their homes for personal devotions. What do you think about that? Is that a practice you commend? >>Dr. Bray: Yes, I do commend that. Everyone should have personal devotions of whatever kind and it will be different for different people. I don’t lay down the law. In our own church, when you are ordained you undertake to use the prayer book on a daily basis, which is what I do. Over the 40+ years that I’ve been ordained it has become part of me in that respect. And it is a protection if you like, because when things are going well in your life as a Christian it doesn’t really matter because you’re sort of flying high and everything is all fine. But it’s in the down times when you’re discouraged, when you’re doubting, when you’ve got problems – you need something to keep you going. You need a foundation. And it’s in those times that something like this, the investment pays off shall we say. It’s like eating. I mean, I can’t say that every meal I’ve had has been a marvelous experience. (laughs) But on the other hand, that hasn’t stopped me eating. (laughs) And if it is a good meal, well I’m grateful. You know what I mean. It goes like that. I’ve got to the point now where if I miss my daily devotion from the prayer book for whatever reason – I’m flying overnight or something like that, things get out of kilter, I feel it as if I’d missed a meal, a physical meal. And that’s a sign from the Lord I think of how important this is – to come back to him. I’m not a fundamentalist in prayer book terms. I don’t idolize it and so on. But I use it as a tool. Really for my own ... I pray the prayer book and then I go into my own private devotions from there. As a kind of baseline on which to build a foundation. I think that’s what you have to do and have to understand it. And of course the great thing about it is it keeps you balanced. Because some people they emphasize one thing – thanksgiving or intercession or whatever. That’s all fine, but they’re not balancing it off with other things. Whereas if you follow the prayer book you are forced to be balanced. And that’s very important. >>Doug Sweeney: Some great advice. Dr. Bray, we’re about out of time. You know we always like to end our podcast interviews by asking our guests what God is doing in their lives these days, what God is teaching them these days. Because we want to end on a note that is just forthrightly edifying for the people who are listening. So, we ask you: What is God working on in your life these days? What is God doing or teaching you? >>Dr. Bray: Well, there are many things. I think one thing that he is doing is teaching me to be patient. More patient. I’m by nature a very impatient person. I like to do things and get them done. That’s just me. And I’m learning to hold back and say, well, God’s timing is always right. And he will do what he is going to do when it’s right to be done. Not when I want it done. But when he wants it done. And really just to surrender this, to surrender my own thoughts and wishes and so on of which I’ve got plenty. And ask him to sort of reconstruct my thinking so that I’m on his wavelength rather than keep trying to force him to be on mine. And say, “Lord, why aren’t you doing this, that, or the other? I mean, I asked you already and you haven’t done it yet.” (laughs) You know? Sort of turn around and look at it the other way ‘round. I think that’s especially as growing older and realizing that you’re running out of time. I think that’s a very important lesson to learn. That, yes, I’m running out of time, I think, and so I want to hurry it up. I want to see it in my time sort of thing. But that’s not the way that God works. You plant a tree and the tree will outlive you. And you’ve got to do this. Here we’re sowing seeds at Beeson all the time, but when will they mature? I may not live to see it on this earth. But I’ll see it from Heaven. And having that faith to say, well, it doesn’t depend on me. I’m a servant. I’m called to go home. Well, that’s it. I’m called to go home. I have to do what I’m told. And then I shall know even, as Paul says, “Even as also I am known. Now we see through a glass darkly but then face to face.” As long as you stay on the principles of faith, hope, and love and just walk in faith, keep the hope going, and demonstrate as much love as you can as you do so, then you don’t need to worry. The time will come. I will go. And God’s work will continue. >>Doug Sweeney: What a marvelous note on which to end. May the Lord help us all to grow in our aptitude for relying on his time and his grace, his provision, his providence in our lives. You have been listening to Dr. Gerald Bray. He is research professor of Divinity here at Beeson Divinity School where he has served faithfully on the faculty for more than three decades. Please check out his new book, “A Companion to the Book of Common Prayer.” We commend it to you heartily and we’ll feature it when we post this podcast interview on our media channels as well. Thank you, Dr. Bray, for being with us. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. We’re praying for you. We ask you to continue to pray for the Lord’s work here at Beeson Divinity School. We say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.