Beeson Podcast, Episode #691 Reverend Michael Novotny Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. I am joined today by my friend and Beeson alumnus, Father Michael Novotny, who serves as the Rector of Christ the King Anglican Church in Hoover, Alabama, greater Birmingham. Father Michael also serves as the Dean of the Central Alabama Deanery in the Anglican Diocese of the South. Thank you, my friend, for being with us today. >>Novotny: Thank you for having me. >>Doug Sweeney: So, Father Michael, this is your first time on the podcast. So, for those who don’t already know you and know about you, just tell us a little bit about how you grew up, how you came to know the Lord and how you discerned that he was moving you into pastoral ministry? >>Novotny: Yeah, thanks again for the opportunity. So, I’ll start in the present. I’m married to Jennifer Novotny and Jennifer and I have four children: Levi, Priscilla, Ruth, and Joseph. Then we have one child in heaven – our beloved Samuel as well. So, five total. And yeah, we live in Birmingham, minister there, and love it. But back to my kind of faith journey. So, I was baptized as an infant and we joke about this but literally on the eighth day as a Presbyterian. So, I grew up until about the age of ten in the Presbyterian Church out in Oklahoma where I’m from and my wife is from. Yeah, I went to church fairly regularly with my mother at that point. My dad wasn’t a Christian at that point in our home, so it was my mom and dad. My mom would take us to church at Westminster Church in South Oklahoma City. A Presbyterian church that my great grandfather and great grandmother attended. So, I went there, was baptized of course first as a child. I served as ... I don’t know if they would have called them acolytes in the Presbyterian Church but what was basically an acolyte at age nine and ten. And then we moved out into the country into rural Oklahoma which is where I spent most of my life. So, the joke around our household is that ministering at Christ the King in a suburban setting in Hoover, Alabama has us as missionaries because I’m really from the country. I’m a country kid from Oklahoma. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, that’s great. We need you! >>Novotny: Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. So, of course we love it here and love it in the state. But when we moved into rural Oklahoma there were no Presbyterian churches there. There were several churches in a couple of small towns near us. But again, even the smallest town was nearly a 20 minute drive for us from my parents’ property. So, there was a small rural Baptist Church. I say “small” – probably about 75-80 people were worshipping there on a Sunday. When we began to go – when I was about 11 or 12. It was at that church that my father came to faith, praise God. I remember the pastor and one of the deacons coming out to the trailer home that we lived in out in rural Oklahoma and talking to my dad about the faith. My dad was raised kind of nominally Catholic. Yeah, accepted Jesus as Lord. >>Doug Sweeney: Was he converted during that visit by the ... >>Novotny: I think he would say and we would say that was the conversion moment and then of course to kind of talk about that moment is important but also the lifetime of course that is lived after that. But yeah, we would say that was it. Which was of course just a blessing. At about age 12 or so I was re-baptized in the Baptist church. Now as an Anglican I look back and of course my infant baptism was my baptism. I was dunked the second time but it was a good bath in the church that we appreciated. But all that to say, I came to really know and love God in the Baptist church. I spent many years there. Really most of late elementary school all through middle school and high school. The small country church, shout out to Mammoth Baptist Church. A funny name for a very small country church. Mammoth Baptist Church. A wonderful place where I came to know and love God’s word and to come in many ways to accept what was given to me in my baptism and to do that publicly, to confess Jesus as Lord. I have a distinct memory of walking down and praying that sinners prayer with the Baptist pastor there which was great. And it was soon after, probably about a year after that our youth was hosting ... again, someone in the audience here listening may know this thing that some churches do, but it’s called Youth Sunday. And we would do it. And the youth were actually running the church on the Sunday night service. And I remember it was a small youth group of maybe eight to ten kids. I was I think 13 at the time. And our youth pastor said, “All right, we’ve got these two young ladies will be leading the singing, but we need a preacher. Who is gonna preach?” And I remember kind of looking around and thinking, nobody has said anything. And, “I’ll do it!” (laughs) So I volunteered to do it. And preached from 1 John. I don’t remember much about it other than telling people that Jesus is the light that we’re to follow and in him there is no darkness. That is the thing I could remember from 1 John. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, I’m sure it was a wonderful sermon. >>Novotny: Well, thank you. It was at that point, having really gotten up and preached or spoken the word of God as I saw it to the people that I really felt the Holy Spirit kind of drawing me at that moment into ordained ministry in the future. And that came to really ... I’m trying to think of the word here ... that came to be solidified when I was 16 years old at the same church. We had a man come and preach a revival at the church. I tell the joke, you may have heard me say this before, but we were in some ways too poor to have a tent revival. Because tents cost a lot of money to set up outside. So, we had it in the church. And he came and he spoke about the gospel and repentance of sin. But he also spoke about something that I really wish a lot of churches – Anglican, Lutheran, even Baptists have gotten away from this – but actually preaching to the people in such a way saying, “Maybe God is calling you to be a missionary.” Maybe God is calling you to be a minister. And it was very direct. And I felt like at that moment God was calling me to be a preacher of his word. And so I went down and prayed and talked with that evangelist and with the pastor and with my youth pastor. And it seemed to be evident as people came around me, literally, at that revival but later, saying we think God is doing something in you and we want to affirm that in you. So, I say later as we came into the Anglican church, God first gave me in the Baptist church the commission, the calling to preach the word, and in the Anglican context it was not just to preach the word but to rightly and duly administer the sacraments. That was the marriage that came a bit later for me. >>Doug Sweeney: And you became Anglican while you were studying theology in school? Or before >>Novotny: Yeah. Great question. So, I studied Philosophy in undergrad at Oklahoma Baptist University, knowing that the Lord had called me into ministry and I would be applying to various and sundry divinity schools and seminaries. But it was actually here at Beeson Divinity School where I started in the fall of 2009 that Jennifer and I kind of made our way from the Baptist Church to the Anglican way. Yeah, so it was here at Beeson that switch took place. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. So, we’ve mentioned Beeson. Just a word – how did you get here? Why did you come to Beeson and how was Beeson for you as a student? >>Novotny: Well, I would say first of course it was in the providence of God that I would come to school here. I can look back having now been Rector (Senior Pastor) at Christ the King for going on seven years here in Birmingham, that the Lord wanted me to study here and then to plant here as a minister of his word and sacraments. But actually how it turned out is that I studied Philosophy but I minored in Bible and Theology at Oklahoma Baptist. One of my professors there had studied at Beeson and received his MDiv – Justin Hardin. Shout out to Justin who I think is now maybe the Vice President at- >>Doug Sweeney: Ouachita Baptist. >>Novotny: That’s right. >>Doug Sweeney: He’s going to be preaching here later this year for our spring commencement ceremony. >>Novotny: No way! >>Doug Sweeney: Yes, that’s right. >>Novotny: Well, I’ll be here in the pews for that one for sure. Yeah, so I’ve known Justin for quite some time. He was young when he took the position at Oklahoma Baptist University. He had just received his PhD from Cambridge. He went from Beeson to Cambridge and then came to OVU and taught for three or four years there. He was the one to mention to me that I should check out Beeson Divinity School. I came down, checked it out, felt like the Lord was leading me here. The interdenominational aspect was an important one for me. >>Doug Sweeney: I’d love to hear you say more about that. When we have denominational leaders on the show who are well known for being leaders of, representatives of, and proud representatives of particular denominations one thing I like to ask them is so, why did you come to an interdenominational seminary? Is there anything you’d want to say that would be positive to other denominational people who aren’t looking to move from one denomination to another about the value of studying at an interdenominational place? >>Novotny: Yeah. Great question. As I said, that was a huge factor for me wanting to attend Beeson. Funny enough, I think it would be interesting for me to note that initially I think I would have said something kind of different than I would now looking back on having attended an interdenominational school. Both positive but in retrospect I think what it allowed me to do on the ground while getting grades, writing papers, and doing the things that one does in graduate school is it finally allowed me to sharpen what I thought the scriptures were saying. You have kind of iron sharpening iron when you’re going to school with people that don’t always agree on things. And that’s very much a positive. I think for me going into Beeson the interdenominational pull was one of I think I know what I believe but I don’t fully know what I believe, which I think can be in some respects a very good reason for coming. But I would say that actually it’s a place where you can be sharpened in what you feel like are the distinctive’s of your tradition. And you do that in love and with respect with the professors from various denominations and from students. So, looking back, even though I did make a switch while I was here from the Baptist faith that I love and hold with such high regard to the Anglican way. But it was here that Anglican theology both because of Father Lyle Dorsett who founded the church that I am Rector at but also was a long time faculty member here – that I was sharpened as an Anglican. And that’s an important thing that really takes place in a way that it wouldn’t if you go necessarily to a denominational school. So, both have their positives. But I like to be sharpened with and against others who disagree on things. I think that sharpening is a bit more fine tuned, as it were. >>Doug Sweeney: Now that we’re talking about what you’re calling the “Anglican way,” I’m reminded we have an interdenominational audience as well for the podcast. Let’s give them a little introduction to your denomination, the Anglican Church of North America. Where does this denomination come from? What’s it like? What is it like to be a member of, a priest in the ACNA? >>Novonty: The Anglican Church is a communion. It’s a global communion. So, when we think about the three largest Christian communions in the world you have the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and then you have the Anglican Church. These again are worldwide communions. And the Anglican Church in North America is a part of that worldwide communion. The Anglican Church in North America on paper began really about 2010 or so – you’ll have to have your fact checkers on that for me, but about 2010 in response to the Episcopal Church here in the United States in some of what we would say was heresy that slipped in. There was a departing. When you ask us as ACNA’ers how that took place we would say that some in the Episcopal Church had departed the faith once and for all delivered to the saints in various and sundry ways. And we had tried to maintain that within the Anglican Church in North America, and of course within the communion. But as any global communion is very large with all sorts of persons and people worshipping all over the world, we have a few things that bind us together as Anglicans. The first is the prayer book. It’s a thing that binds us together. The second within that of course are the 39 Articles, which is not an extensive confession of faith like the Augsburg Confession or like the Westminster Confession. It’s not extremely extensive. But it’s what we would say is basically our litmus test for orthodoxy in Anglicanism. >>Doug Sweeney: And for the new people out there, what are the 39 Articles? >>Novotny: The 39 Articles are basically articles of the Anglican Christian faith that Anglican pastors (deacons, priests, bishops) have to subscribe to in order to be ordained. These are our theological commitments. And as I said before, they’re not as extensive ... they do leave some room here and there for interpretation on certain things. The 39 Articles in the Book of Common Prayer and then first and foremost the Holy Scriptures, these three things are the things that bind us together as a worldwide communion. The Anglican Church in North America is a recognized part of that communion. That’s the church, the denomination that I am a part of. And the Anglican Church in North America, finally, is broken down into separate dioceses. These are mostly geographic, some of them are not. But mostly geographic sections where we have a bishop that is over that region and that region contains many churches. And so each diocese has its own flavor, has its own theological distinctive’s on kind of secondary maybe even third issues of the Anglican faith. And then each diocese is bound together by an archbishop and that’s our province, the ACNA (Anglican Church in North America). I know that’s probably a bit convoluted and hard to follow but that’s the two and a half or three minute version. >>Doug Sweeney: No, that’s a good primer. >>Novotny: Thank you. >>Doug Sweeney: So, tell us a little bit about your own parish, your local congregation at Christ the King Anglican Church here in town? What is it like? How long have you been serving there? What’s the culture of your church like? >>Novonty: Well, there is a natural affinity for Beeson Divinity School. First of all, kind of geographically speaking because the church, Christ the King Anglican Church that was founded in 2007 by Father Lyle Dorsett and his wife Mary. He was of course a beloved professor for many, many years until his retirement from Beeson. He went to the founding Dean, your predecessor, Timothy George and asked him if he could plant a church and if they could meet in Hodges Chapel. What a glorious and wonderful place to meet. By the way, for those of you that haven’t been to Beeson to visit Hodges Chapel, you need to come! It’s incredible. But that was supposed to be I think about a six month agreement. (laughs) A six month agreement that turned into about 11 years or so. Father Lyle was a founding Rector (Senior Pastor) and he was there for just over 10 years. Then I came in as the person following him. So, I am the second Rector of the parish. In the summer of 2017 is when I took the reigns as full time clergyman and Rector of the parish. In 2018 we purchased the property that we’re at now. And we were able to pay cash for it. A lot of people may not know this – Father Lyle and his wife, Mary, they did not take salaries the entire time as the Rector, and she was a deaconess at the church. They didn’t take salaries so the church could save so that one day when the Lord would provide some land or a building we could afford it. So, in God’s providence and through the Dorsett’s sacrifice in love, we were able to purchase a building. Really, as we say in Oklahoma, “as the crow flies” so a straight line from Beeson to our church is I think about two miles. We were able to purchase that. Yeah, it was just a wonderful God thing. All that to say a little bit more about our parish. So, we’ve been in the building since 2018. We are all about God’s word as Anglicans so we pride ourselves in our parish of preaching the whole counsel of God and doing so in love but unapologetically. We’re also unapologetically, one might say, “high church.” We take the liturgy very seriously. We worship a holy God. And we see, too, that a lot of people, both Christians and non Christians that are coming into the faith, they need to see the transcendence of our Lord and his beauty. Of course in the face of Christ, that is found in the scriptures and the sacrament of communion. We take that really seriously. We’re also a church that doesn’t want to get really bigger than about 300 people. We want to plant a church after that. Somewhere possibly north of the city in Gardendale area, maybe Trussville. Those are two areas that maybe in the next five years we will be able to plant a church in. Because I have this conviction and so do our vestry, which is our kind of lay led board of the church, and our people on the ground. We want the church to be big enough that you can kind of meet new people, as it were, most Sundays. There are going to be some people that you don’t know very well. You can meet them, get to know them, but that you’re going to know people very well though. You will have a small group of people that you know well and that know you well. So, this kind of parish size model which is in some ways countercultural to a lot of church growth movements and these things. But so be it because we feel like the family of faith once it gets so big then you can attend anonymously and that’s just not the life of the Christian. So, I think we take those things very seriously. >>Doug Sweeney: You’ve mentioned a couple of times already the importance of the bible to you and to your ministry and to the ministries of other Anglicans. The reason for having you on the program today is that you’re taking part in our preaching series this year in chapel. We’ve talked about this series a few times already this year on the podcast itself. But it is Fanning Into Flame The Gift of God That Is In Us. It’s featuring Beeson alumni who have been faithful parish pastors for some time now. And we’re asking them to come back, preach from a text that pertains to ministerial formation, and preach it and apply it with some experience that they have gleaned from their own years in pastoral ministry. We want to thank you, publicly, Father Michael, for agreeing to come and be a preacher in this series. When this podcast drops it will still be one week before you preach in chapel. So, we want those listening to go online and listen to you preach in chapel, but they’ll have to wait a couple of weeks after they listen to the podcast. But give them just a little taste as to what you’re planning to talk to the students about when you come and preach in chapel. >>Novonty: First, I do want to extend a thank you to you, Dr. Sweeney, for inviting me. I count this as a great honor and a privilege to be asked to come back to my alma mater and to preach the word of God. So, thank you for the opportunity. If the listeners don’t know yet I will be preaching on the entire book of Jude. >>Doug Sweeney: Wow! Not for the faint of heart! >>Novotny: That’s right. Preaching one whole book of the bible in one sermon. But no, I chose Jude for a variety of reasons. The first is the first few verses of Jude have been I guess just really important to me, they’ve spoken to me in very deep ways in the past three to five years of my ministry. I do want to read, if that’s okay, just a verse here from Jude. Here we are: “Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.” Jude is saying here that he wanted to write about the common salvation that we have in Jesus Christ but he felt compelled to write actually about the contending for the faith that the shepherds, as Jude is going to point out later, in the church but also every Christian are called to be doing. As I was thinking through, too, what would I have needed to hear as a student sitting in those pews in Hodges Chapel? And I think one thing that’s left off, partly because we just don’t preach from Jude very often. I must confess, this will be the first time I’m preaching on Jude in my kind of public ministry. I’ve referenced it many times in teaching. But not in preaching. Jude could have written about living out the Christian faith or teaching the Christian faith, but he’s writing about contending for the faith. He goes on to write about the contending for the faith for the shepherds of God’s people, the ordained clergy, but also of course for just Christians in general. The contending I think we oftentimes think comes, it’s between us and the world ... that there’s a back and forth that is happening. But actually it’s a contending within the household of faith. When people have gone astray and are coming up and doing damage within God’s household. So, for me this verse in particular but the entire book has been one that I have found great challenge and comfort in over the past three to five years. I want to share that with the students. Yeah, and hopefully mix in some of my own experience as well. I would say, too, that we live in a very contentious culture in a negative sense. And the title of the sermon is, “A Holy Contention,” saying that actually when we contend as Christians it can be done in a holy way. Jude gives us ... I don’t want to give too much away but ... he gives us at the end of the book ways to do that. So, we’re called to do it. Not as the world has become specifically in the West a contentious context kind of all the time, we’re not called to be contentious in that way. But we’re called to contend in a holy way for the faith. That’s what I want to challenge and charge the students with. I’ll finally say this, Dr. Sweeney, about the sermon. You preached ... in my years, after you have five kids the years tend to run together. So, I can’t remember if it was the fall of this year or last year you preached to lead off the year of Beeson and you preached on leadership. And how difficult leadership can be, but we’re called as leaders in God’s Church to lead of course out of his love but it’s not going to be easy. So, I want to piggy back off of some of what you had to say a year or so ago. That really affected me as I was in for that chapel, that sermon. >>Doug Sweeney: How hard has it been for you as a leader in recent years in the context of the church? I mean, I want to ask you about your experience contending for the faith. I think everybody listening to this podcast knows a little bit about the secularization, not just of our society in recent years but, of the lives of church people in recent years as well. The instincts that many young people have today to kind of be kind and tolerant at all costs and not ever kind of plant your flag and defend a point of view that you think comes from the Lord. People are increasingly uneasy doing that kind of thing. How has it been for you? Is it really difficult these days in the church to do this? Has it not been so difficult for you? And what would you want to encourage our listeners to bear in mind with respect ... even if they’re lay people ... to their own responsibility for kind of standing up for the Lord in public? >>Novotny: That’s an excellent question. I think I’ve got a lot of things to say. Hopefully I’ll just kind of say as many as I can think of here in the next couple of minutes and the Holy Spirit will guide and lead the people listening. So, for leaders in the church, first. I would say this: you do not need to turn the pulpit into a place of just battling a cultural war. I find that that’s unhelpful. What I’m not saying is that we don’t preach on relevant topics as they come up in scripture and as we can kind of apply those to the sins of the age or the zeitgeist. We need to be doing that. But your people will stop listening to you if you turn the pulpit into THE place where the truth is spoken but only in a “contending” for the faith kind of way. >>Doug Sweeney: Contentious ... >>Novotny: Exactly. That’s right. So, what does that mean? The pulpit sometimes is the appropriate place for that. Specifically, I mean, God’s word ... though as one of my parishioners actually yesterday said, the word of God doesn’t tell us what apps are not appropriate to have on our phone but it gives us general principles on how to live our life and if we believe that it does that then some of your sermons are going to have to deal with the spirit of the age and the sin both outside the church and within the church. But on top of that, as leaders we also have other ways of pushing back and of teaching our people and that’s catechesis, that’s the old way of putting it “Sunday School.” These things in getting your people to come and to listen and to learn. So, we’re able to preach then to teach. But the final thing may be the most important. I’ve been able to have difficult conversations with parishioners over topics that could be seen as “contentious,” but I’ve been able to do that and they’ve been able to receive things, but also in many ways to give truth and love to me because we’re in a relationship with one another. I feel like when a church gets so large that you’re not able to have those on the ground relationships everyone does feel like they’re in a community of faith that is walking, though yes in separate ways much of the time ... some of my parishioners live 40 minutes away from one another so they don’t see each other all the time ... but we’re moving in a general direction that over time God builds by his Spirit love and patience. Of course you think of the fruits of the spirit in God’s people. So, then we can actually get to the fact of the matter. It’s funny, none of us have an issue with the surgeon who comes in and says, “Look, I’ve got some bad news. The cancer is here and it’s here. But the good news is I can open you up and I can make a very painful incision and the anesthesia is going to help for a while, it’s going to be a painful recovery. But I’m able to cut those things out.” No one has a problem with the surgeon who does that to save our life, our earthly life, as it were. But we want our people to trust then that the shepherds of their souls are wanting in love to do surgery by the Spirit on them but also for the people to know I’m also on an operating table, my bishop can do surgery on me, parishioners in my church have come to me and said, “Hey, Father Michael, we see this in your life and we think maybe God is teaching you this or maybe you’re struggling with this.” And I can receive that and they can do a surgery on me. So, I think again if we view our spiritual lives as important, well in many ways more important but at least as important as our physical lives and then kind of moving beyond our physical lives then we won’t have an issue. But all this is done kind of as Eugene Peterson said years ago, it’s the title of one of his books, “It’s a long obedience in the same direction,” and when that happens I think people then can hear the truth and process the truth when you have to give it. >>Doug Sweeney: A lot of pastoral wisdom there. Okay, my last question to you is what kind of surgery is the Lord doing on you these days? We always end these podcast interviews by my asking our guests, even if they’re seasoned veteran pastors, is the Lord still teaching you things? Is the Lord still at work in your life? And we end this way so that we provide a concluding word of spiritual edification to the people listening. So, is the Lord still at work doing surgery on Father Michael Novotny? And what’s going on these days? What is He teaching you? >>Novotny: Really good question. Oh yeah, in so many ways! I would say two things. The first is that when you’re in a community of faith as long as I’ve been, a church community in the Christian faith, and Jennifer and I have been members at Christ the King for basically since 2010. So, 14 years. And I’ve been Rector for half of that time. There are brothers and sisters in the parish that I’ve known for 3, 5, 7, 10, a few of them for 14 years. And they’re able to speak into my life. So, that is a wonderful thing. But then as an Anglican I have other priests. As a matter of fact, I have a spiritual director, Mark Graham, a beloved friend of mine who is a NALC pastor for many years, retired recently. He’s my spiritual guide and director that I talk to quite often. But the Lord is working on me and I think a lot of Christians can relate. When you have children you see many times, of course the positive wonderful good things that God has given to me and my wife in our personalities and the fruits of the spirit that we excel at by God’s grace. We see those in our children. But you also see your own sin. You see your own sin in your children. You see the ways in which you sin against your children. And for me the Lord has been really working on learning to be a father that gives the boundaries of expectations, of what it means to be a follower of our Lord and to serve him and to do what is right, and what is wrong, but to implement that not in wrath but in love. That’s where the Lord I think is working on me, in those ways. I think my beloved children would agree and my beloved spouse would agree. I think my parishioners would agree. And I think that is bearing fruit in my pastoral ministry – learning to lead with love. But leading in love doesn’t mean that we don’t and can’t contend for the faith. Leading in love doesn’t mean that we’re not able to do the surgery, or to have the surgery done to us. As a matter of fact, I think it makes those things more necessary. I think finally I guess for me the Lord is teaching me to trust in that all too forgotten doctrine in the Anglican Church that we have as Christians is really just the providence of our God. That every moment in time the Lord is trying to meet us and trying to teach us. And I think the Lord has been pruning me, saying, “In these moments I’m trying to teach you these things. Would you listen?” So, those are probably two of the ways that the Lord is refining me. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. Thanks be to God for his providential care in all of our lives. >>Novotny: Amen. >>Doug Sweeney: Friends, you have been listening to my friend, Father Michael Novotny, who serves as Rector, Senior Pastor for those of us who aren’t Anglican, of Christ the King Anglican Church here in Hoover, Alabama. He is an alumni of Beeson Divinity School. We’re proud to say! And he will be preaching in chapel on Tuesday, March 26th which is about a week after this podcast episode drops. So, if you’re listening to it right away give us a few days and then come to chapel in Hodges if you can be there, and if not we’ll have it posted for you on YouTube soon. Listeners, we are praying for you and we love you. We thank you for tuning in. We thank you for praying for the students of Beeson Divinity School. Please pray for Father Michael Novonty and the good people of Christ the King Church in Hoover. We say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.