Beeson Podcast, Episode #694
Dr. Justin Hardin
Date

>>Announcer: 

Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. 


>>Doug Sweeney:

Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. I am joined today by Dr. Justin Hardin, an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School who currently serves as Vice President for Academic Affairs at Ouachita Baptist University. Dr. Hardin will deliver our commencement address a bit later this month. We are very grateful to him for that. And we’re grateful to have him on the program with us today. Welcome, Dr. Hardin.


>>Hardin:

Thank you for having me. 


>>Doug Sweeney:

Some of our Beeson folks know all about you. We’ve been discussing that before we started recording here. But I’m sure there are plenty of people listening to this podcast episode now who need an introduction to you. So, would you mind telling us just a little bit how you grew up and how you came to faith in Christ and how you knew the Lord was leading you into educational ministry?


>>Hardin:

Yeah, I’d be happy to do that. First thing to say is it’s been a few years since I’ve been a student at Beeson. I started in 1998. It’s amazing how the Lord has prepared me for that moment and since that moment. Maybe to start from before I could walk, the Lord had his hand on me. I grew up in a Christian household. My dad was a bi-vocational minister. He did music ministry back in the ‘70s, youth ministry when that was kind of a new thing back in the ‘70s. My mom played the piano in small little country churches in north Texas. Back in the days when McKinney and Frisco and those places were still farm towns. Now they’re big metropolises. But back in those days really tiny churches that my dad was serving at and my mom.

So, I grew up hearing about Jesus from before I was born and when I was born. From then on I just remember hearing the stories of Jesus and his love for me. I remember sitting on the piano bench when my mom played the piano in church. I remember with my older sister and younger brother signing trios on the steps right there in our church in our small town, some Christian songs that we had learned as little kids.

So, I was baptized before I could ... now, this is a Baptist Church, okay? This might come as a shock. I was baptized before I could swim. I was baptized by immersion. I think I was four years old. I still remember it. A little horrifying because I couldn’t swim. But I remember walking the aisle in our little church and telling everyone that I wanted to follow Jesus. In my little heart, everything that I knew, it was just that I wanted to follow him. I remember being baptized from that early age. 

So, throughout the years I could point to many other milestones that God has placed in my life, those moments where he reveals more about his love to me and where I make a further decision to follow him in a deeper way. And so one of those moments came when I was 12. When I was called into ministry. So, that happened. It’s kind of a funny story, so I may tell a little bit of it. I was in the youth group in my church. We had since moved to east Texas and our youth pastor had put on the video for us to watch – the Left Behind series. Now, this isn’t the Tim LaHaye and Jenkins version. Kirk Cameron was still on Growing Pains at the time. He was not making Left Behind movies. Nick Cage hadn’t made The Rock yet, I don’t think. So, these were the original ‘70s version where they were all wearing bell bottoms.

I remember being terrified watching those films, as most youth were in those days. I remember having followed Jesus but having all these doubts in my mind about whether or not I was truly a Christian. Of course in those films its meant to kind of ... “Are you going to be left behind?” And whatever you make about end times scenarios, I watched it in my youth group and I remember our youth pastor talking about it afterwards. I remember talking to him and saying, “I’m not quite sure about my salvation.” He looked at me a little bit strangely and said, “What do you mean? You’ve been following Jesus your whole life. You seem to be showing the marks of Jesus. You’ve confessed Jesus as Lord, right?” “Yeah, I have.” And he was like, “Well, then don’t worry about it. You’re a follower of Jesus.” And then he looked at me and said, “By the way, I’ve been meaning to ask you – when are you going to surrender to the ministry?” 

That was the first time somebody had spoken to me about something I felt internally even from that very, very young age. I didn’t know what that meant. But I knew I wanted to follow Jesus with my vocation wherever he would take me. So, that was the first moment watching the Left Behind series that prompted that conversation with my youth pastor. And then from that point on when I went to Ouachita Baptist University where I’m now serving. And did a double major in biblical studies and history. And then went to Beeson. I was not sure exactly what ministry God was calling me into but knew that it was going to have to do with teaching the bible. 

Eventually God called me to teach in Christian education. So, now I’m back here in my current role overseeing academics at Ouachita and I still see that as a real important function of ministry to serve Him. Of course I’ve always served along the way in our local church in whatever way, whether on staff or volunteer. Whatever that looks like in my current church. Right now it’s volunteer – teaching Sunday School. So, I do that faithfully. My wife and I do that. So, we enjoy getting to serve ministry for all these years. It’s been since I was 12. I don’t want to tell you how many years that’s been. It’s been a lot of years. So, God has been gracious to me from the very, very beginning before I could swim until now.


>>Doug Sweeney:

So, when you were at Beeson Divinity School were you trying to figure out whether God wanted you to be a pastor or some kind of an academic? What was the discernment process like for you in seminary?


>>Hardin:

Yeah, when I was in seminary I wasn’t sure. I just knew I wanted to serve Him. I was a youth pastor during the first part of my seminary days. And was kind of working this out. When I turned 18 and I was at Ouachita my freshman year it’s the first time I realized that I could teach scripture in an academic setting. And that was really what I was thinking God might be calling me into. So, when I went to Beeson it was with that in mind. But I always wanted to do that in service of the church. And so I wasn’t quite sure if I was going to be a teaching pastor in a church, if I was going to be in a college, university, or seminary, or missionary teaching scripture. But I knew that teaching scripture was going to be the focal point of whatever that ministry looked like. So, I was even at Beeson thinking about getting a PhD as well. I wasn’t sure what part of scripture I’d be studying but I knew that it would be in biblical studies from early on.


>>Doug Sweeney:

Did you go to Cambridge right after Beeson? Or was there a gap between seminary and PhD?


>>Hardin:

Yeah, I did. For those of you who are listening who were at Beeson in the late ‘90s like me you would know that a man by the name of Bruce Winter who was the warden of Tyndale House in Cambridge he came on a few successive years to Beeson and taught in a January term. My second year at Beeson he was actually there the spring semester. I got to know Bruce Winter a little bit. I was in a prayer group that he was leading at the time. He taught a class on 1 Corinthians which I didn’t take, but I listened to. I think Rob may have actually recorded that and I think I borrowed the tape to listen to it. But he taught a biblical interpretation class, which I did take. And through that experience I was thinking about PhD programs. It was my second year at Beeson. 

I remember him in his Australian accent saying, “You must try Cambridge.” That was the first time it was really on my radar to study overseas. And so I applied and ended up working with Graham Stanton while I was there and actually living at Tyndale House. So, Jill and I lived there and we had two kids while we were in Cambridge. And our two boys lived there at the residence at Tyndale House as well. I was a member of St. Edmund’s College. So, yeah, it was a great experience. But that’s really part of that process of discernment came through relationships that I had with professors. Gerald Bray was also instrumental in that; Frank Thielman was instrumental in that as well. Ken Matthews ... talking with all of those faculty members about God’s calling on my life and helping me to kind of make that leap, literally, across the pond.


>>Doug Sweeney:

Marvelous. All right, so I want to ask you mostly about life at Ouachita but before we do, just real briefly tell us, how did you get from Cambridge back to Ouachita?


>>Hardin:

Jill and I have been a lot of places. Our kids have lived in a lot of places. Third culture kids. So, I’ll just give a quick sketch. So, after Cambridge my first teaching job was at Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, OK. I started in 2005. Your chapel speaker today, Michael Novotny – he was one of my students at Oklahoma Baptist University. So, I was really delighted to hear that he was preaching in chapel today. I was there for three years and then the Lord called us back to England. So, we went back to England and I was teaching at Wycliffe Hall at the University of Oxford. I did that for six years. And we had just had our third child in Oklahoma, Annie. And she followed us all. Five of us went back to England and then in 2014 the Lord called us to south Florida. We’d never lived in Florida. Been to the beach a few times. And I was helping to oversee the masters of divinity and other masters programs there at Palm Beach Atlantic University. Interdenominational Christian school founded by a Baptist Church, First Baptist Church in West Palm Beach.

So, we were there for eight years. Then this opportunity came to come back to my alma mater. Never thought I would come back to Ouachita. I wasn’t quite sure if it would ever be a fit. Of course I’ve always loved Ouachita but the Lord opened up this position and I’ve been here now for 18 months. So, that’s kind of a thumbnail sketch of how we got back to Ouachita.


>>Doug Sweeney:

At Ouachita now you’re the Vice President for Academic Affairs. Does that include any teaching? Or is that all institutional leadership for you these days?


>>Hardin:

Fortunately I do get to teach one class a year. And so I teach a freshman level class called OBU Connections, which is an introduction to Christian liberal arts. And then in 2/3’s of the course professors can teach whatever topic they like to do. And so I’ve been teaching the last two years on the Seven Deadly Sins. So, that gets some theology that I get to teach still. 

Yeah, I miss teaching a lot but love what I’m doing, helping to empower and equip faculty for serving students here at Ouachita. 


>>Doug Sweeney:

What’s that transition been like for you? I get asked this all the time. I, too, used to be a regular professor and moved, not too long ago, into full time deanery. How did you discern that’s something the Lord had for you?


>>Hardin:

Yeah, that sort of started in Oxford when I was meeting with my direct supervisor who noticed some leadership potential in me and gave me some opportunities to do some administrative leadership. And so it kind of went from there. So, when I went to Palm Beach Atlantic I was an associate dean overseeing graduate programs but also teaching undergrads as well. So, kind of having my feet in both places for quite some time.

So, this is just more focused on the leadership side. But yeah, it took many years for that sort of to develop. And I’m still developing ... I’m very new in this role. And so it’s been a great experience, a good learning experience, and I feel like it’s been a positive one for me.


>>Doug Sweeney:

Tell us just a little bit about Ouachita. Of course we’ve got Beeson people today who are alumni of Ouachita, a lot of people listening probably know a little bit about it. If you were going to describe your university to a stranger today what would you say?


>>Hardin:

Yeah. Ouachita is in the heart of Arkansas, southwest Arkansas. About an hour from Little Rock. And it was established in 1886. It’s been a school for all these 137 years. Dedicated to loving God and loving learning. So, it’s a Christian liberal arts school. Until recently we’ve focused on undergraduate degrees. And so that’s on campus undergraduate has always been our real strength. But in the past five to ten years we’ve actually expanded into some graduate degrees that we think serve both God’s people feeling called to do his work but also feel that it serves some met needs in our world today.

For example, we’re starting a master of arts in clinical mental health counseling. And of course there’s a huge need, especially post pandemic, but in the world in general for God’s people to be out there serving in that role. And so we’re starting that ... our first cohort is starting in the fall. We’re really excited about that. So, Ouachita is an undergrad and grad university focused on loving God and loving learning and serving Him in the world.

So, it’s smaller than Samford. I think we have around 1700 students total. We are really blessed. In recent years we have continued to grow. Part of that is through some programs that we’ve been offering that are really hitting felt needs. We just started an undergraduate nursing program. And so that has just graduated ... in fact, this May we’re graduating our first four year cohort which is really exciting. And this year, freshman, it was actually our largest incoming freshman class.

It’s grown really fast, been really successful. But there’s a nursing shortage. In Arkansas, but also nationwide. And so we feel like this is helping a felt need but we’re teaching of course here at Ouachita from a Christian worldview. And so nurses feel called to serve Him and many Christians in the nursing field want to serve Him with what God has gifted them in. And so Ouachita is a great place for any field. Of course I did biblical studies. You may have heard the name Scott Duvall and Danny Hayes, J Daniel Hayes, he goes published by – who have written ... I was the guinea pig back when I was an undergraduate for many of the books that are now out there that serve many Christian schools and seminaries, grasping God’s Word, applying God’s Word, all those things that are out there. Even the story of the bible by [inaudible 00:16:27] and Terry Carter. Those are former professors here at Ouachita, or current professors here at Ouachita as well.

So, yeah, I love being here back at Ouachita. Some of my professors are still teaching and they remember me, which is terrifying. But it’s fun to be back at this place.

>>Doug Sweeney:

Roughly what percentage these days of Ouachita students would be Baptist and how has the school included other folks over the years?


>>Hardin:

Yeah. The percentage fluctuates year by year. I would say the majority of students are Baptist but increasingly we have more and more students who are coming from another faith background. It could be interdenominational or Pentecostal, it could be from a mainline denomination who are coming to Ouachita. We don’t require ... some schools require you to sign a confession of faith if you’re a student. At Ouachita we don’t require that. So, we do have students who come here who aren’t Christians. I always like to encourage faculty when we talk about it here at Ouachita, I love for students to take their first step or their next step with Jesus, whatever that looks like for them, but I would say 85% or maybe even higher, that’s probably a conservative number, who would say identify as growing Christians here at Ouachita.

So, it’s been a real fun time to be back and see people. Of course, I also have students come tell me, “Hey, I became a Christian last semester.” And so that’s also great to hear. But spiritual formation is a real high point here at Ouachita. We actually have an elective in spiritual formation and a lot of students take it with Scott Duvall because they want to grow in their faith.


>>Doug Sweeney:

Now that you are perched in the Vice Presidency for Academic Affairs at a major Christian university, what do you see? And what would you say are the most significant challenges and opportunities facing those particularly those in leadership at our Christian colleges these days?


>>Hardin:

I mean, there’s the obvious faith aspect. I think if I were to think about the most recent last fall with the public access to Chat GPT in its latest formulation with artificial intelligence. That’s one thing that we’ve actually been talking a little bit about here at Ouachita. Because it really throws a spanner in the works (as they would say on the other side of the pond). It really throws a big question mark on how useful and how needed is education when most of the information you need can be accessed through a little square phone box that you carry in your pocket?
And so one of the things that we’ve been talking about here at Ouachita is that the process of education is not just about output. It’s not just about results. It’s not just about the answers. It’s about the process. The process of education and formation is really critical to what it means to have a well formed mind. And to have a well formed heart. And so imagine if you think about an athletic image or going to team and say, “Good news, everyone. No need to go to practice this week because AI has got it for you. All you have to do is show up to the game on Saturday.” I think that might ... you might not win. There’s a sense in which the process of getting to the Saturday game is important. And in fact, if not more important than the actual showing up to the game itself. Of course you have to execute during that performance, but it’s really what’s gotten you there that’s so important.

So, one of the things that we’re doing at Ouachita is talking about the process of education – is really important. I think that dovetails with if AI is one big sort of challenge in higher ed in general, not just in Christian higher ed, I think the other is this idea that you go to college to get a career. It’s the utilitarianization of education, where it’s really what you get out of it instead of who you become as you study. And so even helping students in that process of discernment, it’s not just we want you to get a career in ... and our graduation rate of people getting a career and getting a job is really high. We obviously don’t want to lose that perspective, because that’s ultimately important. 

But is that the be all end all? And I think we would say, no. The point of an education is to become a well formed individual to discern what God has called you to be and not just what he’s called you to do in the world. And that’s where Christian education I think is unique because we are focused on spiritual formation and on the formation of your Christian character as a person who is gifted and called by God to go serve in the world – wherever you’re called to serve.

I know that some people use this analogy – when you go to a Christian school it’s a bubble. A Christian bubble. And then you get out into the real world. I don’t like that analogy. I like to use the analogy of a greenhouse. A Christian university is a greenhouse. It’s a place where you’re nourished, where you can thrive, where you’re pruned, where you can be protected from some things but ask the hard questions, protected from the storms of the world to some extent. And then the goal of a greenhouse is to get you out of the greenhouse so that you can be planted in the world and flourish with deep roots and have fruit and that you would be attractive for others in your walk with the Lord in whatever God has called you to do.

I think that’s a challenge today. Both with artificial intelligence telling us all the answers are already there. You don’t have to write an essay anymore. Or an Elizabethan sonnet. You can get AI to do it for you. Or this idea that the only reason I’m here at college is to get a job. And I think that we’re trying to help people understand it’s way deeper than that.


>>Doug Sweeney:

Well, we are with you completely. In fact, let me ask one more follow up question so you can help us sell the importance of Christian higher ed even here in Birmingham. Tell us a little bit about the process itself, or to use the metaphor you ended with a minute ago – the greenhouse itself. What are some of the things at Ouachita that are going on in the greenhouse, specifically, that contribute to student’s growth and formation, help them become better people, and help them also become better at doing the jobs they wind up getting when they’re done with a Ouachita education. What is it specifically that’s worth four years of a young person’s life that’s going on in that greenhouse?


>>Hardin:

One of the things that we do ... and I’m not exactly sure how Samford does it, although I think Beeson is a real ... with the student/faculty ratio is very small there at Beeson and having that ability to have those intentional conversations. At Ouachita being a small Christian liberal arts by design, we have these conversations. So, academic advisors is one example where every ... in fact, in a couple of weeks students are all going to be meeting in person with their academic advisor to talk about net schedule, last schedule and in that conversation having that opportunity to talk about life, to talk about where do you feel God’s called you? What are some challenges that you’ve faced this year that we need to help you? And just having that open door policy, but also those regular intervals where you’re meeting with an academic advisor. They don’t just go online and sign up for classes, they do that with their advisor in the room with them. And I think that’s a real bonus because we recognize that education happens in community and through conversation. And over coffee. And through prayer. It’s that sort of thing that we’re trying to do here at Ouachita and I think a lot of Christian schools like Samford and others are also on board with that; our education process happens through that intentionality. So, one of the words we like to use at Ouachita is that we’ve invested in you. 

I feel that way ... 30 years ago I started at Ouachita and I remember still actually meeting with my academic advisor. It was Scott Duvall. And I remember him investing in me. I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing right now if it weren’t for that investment back in those days. So, it’s not just the classroom although that’s important. Lots of conversations happen in the classroom that relate to what is our calling in who are we in the world. But also outside the classroom, having those conversations with faculty and other staff and student life and campus ministries and other areas where we have these intentional conversations.


>>Doug Sweeney:

That’s great. So, we mentioned at the top of the interview that in a little bit, over a month from now you’re going to come back to Birmingham and serve as our commencement speaker. We don’t have time to hear the whole commencement address now, but I’m hoping our podcast listeners will find it on the website, Beeson YouTube page. Can you give us a little teaser? What are you going to say to the graduating seniors?


>>Hardin:

Well, I think I was debating when I was asked, you know, you have to give the biblical passage so far in advance and so I was thinking, what am I going to preach on in the commencement address? And I landed on Exodus 3. This is a real pivotal time in the biblical story. It’s the independence movement day. So to speak. Of the Old Testament. When Moses is out in the wilderness and he’s taking care of his father-in-law’s flock. God shows up in a burning bush and says, “I want you to be a part of my redemption story.” I think for all of us called to ministry we think, “Who, me!? You want ME to serve YOU?” And so the name of the sermon is “Who me?” And it’s looking at this interaction where God has a conversation with Moses. And it’s based on this covenantal relationship that he has with his people and he’s remembered that covenant and he wants to use Moses to help fulfill it and to see Moses kind of flailing around trying to find every excuse possible not to be a part of this. And God patiently explaining, “I have a plan.” And unfolding that in that conversation.

So, we’re going to look at it in commencement. But that’s my teaser. If you want to read Exodus 3 in preparation for it. Go ahead. It’s a wonderful passage where God has this back and forth conversation and Moses asks all these questions and God gives all these patient answers. And finally Moses says, “Well, maybe you should find someone else.” And God starts asking him questions. And it’s a real important story to set the scene for the amazing exodus that happens later on in that book.


>>Doug Sweeney:

I can’t wait to hear the message. So, Dr. Hardin, you may or may not know this, but at the end of all our podcast interviews we ask guests the same question. We do it so we conclude on a very edifying note for those who are listening to us. We want to know – is the Lord teaching you anything these days? Doing anything in your life these days? And let me set it up by reminding our listeners that you’re a guy who has been in Christian discipleship almost your whole life. You are a PhD from Cambridge in New Testament. Clearly you know a few things about the Lord and His Word. But does that mean you’ve just been kind of coasting and resting on all of those laurels you’ve earned from previous years or does a guy like you still learn things in an ongoing way as you walk with the Lord? And if so, what’s going on these days?


>>Hardin:

Yeah. Thank you. That’s a great question to ask. I was thinking about the end of Lent here and Holy Week what has God been revealing to me and one of the biggest ... and I guess this has been a couple of years but something that keeps coming back to me where the Lord has been teaching me is just the impact of his presence with me. And I know that we can talk theoretically about the presence of God in the bible. In fact, some of my former profs have written a book on the presence of God in the bible. But just having that experience in Lent knowing that Jesus has done this amazing work of ministry, he’s in the final week of his earthly ministry, and he’s saying at the very end of it, at the resurrection and he tells his disciples, “I’m going to be with you to the very end of the age.” 

And just the compassion and love of God that you can see, even in that moment. I’m drawn back to Psalm 103. It’s a Psalm that many of us are familiar with at the end of confession where you have the assurance that God is a compassionate God, slow to anger, and abounding in love. I just maybe would want to read a couple of those verses. Just to maybe help us understand the way in which God is present with us right now. So, maybe if you’re listening now and you’re in the middle of Holy Week and you’re struggling in that moment just as Jesus must have been struggling in his earthly ministry – know that He is with you. He has gone before you. He is also with you even now.

So, I’m going to read a couple of these verses if that’s okay. I’m going to start ... I wish I could read the whole Psalm, but I’m going to start in verse 6 and just read kind of the middle section. 

The Lord works righteousness
  and justice for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known his ways to Moses,
  his acts to the people of Israel.
8 The Lord is merciful and gracious,
  slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
9 He will not always chide,
  nor will he keep his anger forever.
10 He does not deal with us according to our sins,
  nor repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
  so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
  so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
13 As a father shows compassion to his children,
  so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him.
14 For he knows our frame;
  he remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass;
  he flourishes like a flower of the field;
16 for the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
  and its place knows it no more.
17 But the steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him,
  and his righteousness to children's children,
18 to those who keep his covenant
  and remember to do his commandments.

[ESV]

What a great Psalm. When I read it I tear up thinking about God’s love, our mortality, our frailty. We’re in the flesh and yet by God’s spirit he’s re-creating us into a new creation in the image of His Son and His love and compassion knows no depths and no breadth. Because it is so amazing.

So, leave that and maybe that can encourage you this week as we think about what Jesus did for us.


>>Doug Sweeney:

Amen. Thank you, Justin. You have been listening to Dr. Justin Hardin. We are proud to say he is an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School. He will be returning to Beeson Divinity School next month to give our spring commencement address. He also serves as Vice President for Academic Affairs at Ouachita Baptist University where the Lord is using him mightily I am sure in his new role. 

We thank you, Dr. Hardin, for being with us today. We thank you listeners for tuning in. We ask you please pray for the students of Beeson Divinity School and Ouachita University. Thank you for joining us. We say goodbye for now.


>>Rob Willis:

You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.