Beeson Podcast, Episode #
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>>Announcer: 

Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. 


>>Doug Sweeney:

Welcome to the Beeson podcast. I'm your host, Doug Sweeney, and I'm joined today by Beeson professor Doug Webster, a pastor theologian who has announced his plans to retire at the end of this academic year. By the end of this year, Dr. Webster will have served 19 years here at Beeson. We're grateful to God for his ministry and legacy. And we're delighted to have him on the podcast to reflect on these things together with me. So thank you, Doug, for being with us. 
>>Webster:
And thank you, Dean Sweeney. Good to be with you. 
>>Sweeney:
Well, so let's reflect - almost 20 years together here. Maybe we can go back to the beginning. And maybe I should say even before we do, it's significant, the almost 20 number is significant in my mind because you were a faithful, well, teacher, professor for a while, but pastor of a number of churches for many years before you even came to do 20 years of ministry at Beeson. So I guess the purpose of the podcast is to reflect on your nearly 20 years with us, but we can also reflect on the Lord's faithfulness in your life over decades and decades of faithfulness to him in ministry, theological ministry, pastoral ministry. Thank you, friend. 
>>Webster:
Well, it doesn't really feel like it's as long as it is. 
>>Sweeney:
You're not that old. That's not what I meant to say. 
>>Webster:
I was a youth pastor in 1975. So we're coming up on 50 years of constant involvement in one way or another with either church or teaching. So it's been a long but and I'm not done yet. I'm thankful for that. 
>>Sweeney:
Well, all right. So after you'd served a number of churches as a pastor, Timothy George did persuade you to come and join the faculty here at Beeson Divinity School. How did he persuade you? Why did you decide to come at the sort of the last big season of your ministry and spend it pouring out into the lives of seminary students? 
>>Webster:
Well, I was in my mid 50s and had been at First Press San Diego for 14 years. The kids had all grown up in that church, were married and off, and the church was in a good place. And, you know, that's important. I mean, I don't think you can leave a place when it seems to be struggling. So things were going well. And I thought it was maybe a great time to hand it off to a new generation and also had a vision for preparing people for pastoral ministry as the last phase. 
And I mean, Beeson in that regard has been wonderful. One of the things that was crossing my mind at 56 and making this decision was, wouldn't it be great to kind of have Sunday almost every day in terms of interacting theologically, biblically, and I think that's something that Beeson provided me. I love Sundays. I love thinking about the word, preparing to preach the word, being with people about the word. When you're a pastor, you also spend a lot of time running the church. And that was true, even though I think we had a pretty shared ministry and a lot of elder support, you still spend a lot of time in administration. And I was kind of looking forward to talking to people about the Bible, about church, about ministry. 
And if you work in a church, this isn't a put down, I mean, people are interested in lawn care and golf and a full range of issues. Now at seminary since 2007, I've been involved with people who want me to talk about the Bible.
>>Sweeney: 
Yes, how about that? 
>>Webster:
They want me to talk about theology. Yeah. All week long. So it's been a blessing. 
>>Sweeney:
You and I are friends and have been for a while. I don't remember ever asking you when you first heard about Beeson. I'm about to ask you. So when you did come, you arrived at Beeson, you started becoming a regular faculty member here. Was it what you expected? And what was your experience like maybe in the early years and then, you know, over almost two full decades? But how did you first hear about Beeson? Did you know about it before Timothy said, “Hey Doug, how about coming over and teaching?”
>>Webster:
Beeson wasn't on my radar. Gordon Conwell, Trinity, I taught at Ontario Theological Seminary for seven years before moving back to the States. And it's now Tyndale Seminary. I had taught some occasional course at Regent and a pastor's conference. Beeson wasn't on my radar. And, but I did know the name Timothy George. And he visited our church one Sunday, and I was preaching on the Trinity, which he must have thought was a little unique. And that led to a lunch together. And then the opening here, and I applied. I don't think there was any kind of special treatment, just got in line with other people. And one thing led to another. 
>>Sweeney:
Yeah. So maybe the question, was it what you expected it to be, is not even a great question, because you weren't, you knew about Beeson a little bit, but you didn't know about Beeson a lot. You just were following the Lord's leading, and you wanted to be in a context where you could shape the next generation. Was that experience about what you assumed it would be like? How's it been for you at Beeson? 
>>Webster:
It's been great. It really has. All work is work, but I think that in my case, it would be hard to define the difference between doing exactly what I want to do, and the work of Beeson. So, it's been very good. It's been stretching in that it's been an occasion to try to write as well, you know, not only shaping pastors. 
>>Sweeney:
And you've done a lot of that. 
>>Webster:
Reading constantly, writing, thinking through, processing by writing how we should be the church and how to interpret God's word. So, it's been a very constant and rich experience. 
>>Sweeney:
Yeah. How has the Lord used it to grow you spiritually? How has it been, you know, a lot of people after serving for decades in pastoral ministry, maybe they're not thinking about, I need to keep growing and growing, but I imagine your time here at Beeson and your ongoing service to the church, the Lord has used to grow you. How has it been a challenge and how has the Lord stretched you as a Christian here at Beeson?
>>Webster:
A friend from Bloomington, Indiana, when I pastored there, just the other week said, one of the things I like about you, Doug, is that you've never stopped learning. And I can't say that that's intentional, or I'm conscious of it. It's just how I'm wired. I do want to grow and learn. And yeah, every step is an arrival, I haven't arrived. And I'll keep pushing. It's one of the things that makes life for me worthwhile, the ministry of the gospel, understanding God's word better. 
I've just come this morning from listening to two really good sermons by my students in class, and just the experience of hoping to help and stretch and encourage, but they're excellent, excellent sermons. And an hour and a half talking about pastoral theology, difference between the church's organism and church's organization, and how the pastor is resilient in that kind of work. And again, I mean, what a privilege to be talking to really capable, intelligent, committed students. And that's just a great blessing. 
>>Sweeney:
Well, one of my favorite things about you is that you really are what we're calling these days a pastor-theologian, somebody who combines a deep and abiding commitment to church ministry, on the one hand, with the life of somebody who was just sort of wired to be a theologian at the same time. Those don't seem like separate enterprises as we look at you do your ministry. So maybe it was fitting that after all those years pastoring, you'd end your years as a theological teacher in a seminary. 
But as you've done it, you've also been very involved, at least in two or three different churches. And I imagine that's also been life-giving and stretching. I don't know, maybe a little tiring for you. I remember there was a season when you were flying to New York back and forth every weekend. And so what's that been like for you? And why has that been a priority for you to be a churchman very actively, even as you're a seminary professor?
>>Webster:
Yeah, I don't see how I could separate them. And I don't know if students would listen to me as much if I wasn't engaged in church. But that's not why I do it. I mean, I feel like that's part of my part of my call. It's very interesting the phases of Beeson experience because in the first four years or so, our daughter Kennerly and son-in-law Patrick lived with us. And so we kind of experienced a little seminary within the big seminary. Which was wonderful. I don't think I ever understood Beeson as well as those four years because the matrix of my experience and students with my kids experience and students was wonderful. 
And then there's years in between, but then the almost four years of going back and forth to New York and the demythologizing of the city for me, you know, going to New York, realizing people are people, people in Birmingham, people in New York are the same people, same spiritual issues and problems. 
And being on the ground floor of a renewal of a church that had been for many years, very liberal and not preaching the gospel. And the vision of lay people in New York desiring to renew that church. They really did it. I was along for the ride. I really enjoyed preaching, really enjoyed being involved with them. But they took the lion's share of the work. And it was just a real, real blessing. And New Yorkers were wonderful to preach to. I mean, they're critical thinkers, they respond, you know where you stand. But it was a great privilege. 
And then the last three years, we've been involved in a church plant here, really wanting an evangelical Presbyterian church in Birmingham, one that was open to women in ministry and could have women pastors. And so I feel like that has been a bit of an achievement, an answer to prayer, the Lord's blessing of Church of the Cross. So we've had a foot in both the church and the school, the academy, all along basically. 
>>Sweeney:
And the Church of the Cross is also a place where there are a bunch of Beeson students who are involved, which must be fun. Some of the same students you're teaching in the classroom, you get to play at least a little role in kind of shepherding in the context of local church ministry. 
>>Webster:
Well, I phased out a bit of that involvement so that it's particularized now and now they can sort of put their leadership team in place. 
>>Sweeney:
Nice. Well, the next question I want to ask you may be a little bit unfair. I mean, you're still in your 19th year. You're not done yet. You're still teaching full time here at Beeson. But have you had a chance yet to think back on the years you spent here at Beeson? And just sort of remember fondly some favorite things about either Beeson itself or some of the people who were involved in Beeson who become friends or classroom experiences. What do you guess? I mean, I want to ask you this question two or three years from now, you know, when you're probably in California looking back on this season at Beeson. But what do you guess when you look back on this whole season, some of your favorite, most recurring memories will be? 
>>Webster:
Well, that is kind of hard to say the favorite. I mean, it's been good relationships of colleagues. I love the fact that we, while we may be very diverse in many different issues, we are not in terms of the lordship of Jesus Christ, the importance of the gospel. And the integrity, inspiration, and urgency of the Word of God. Those are givens among us all to a person, and that creates, I think, a very strong environment for being able to do theology, to do biblical studies. And I think we're all trustworthy. It's reflected not only doctrinally, but I think it's reflected in character. That'll stand out. 
I feel that there's kind of a mix between denominational loyalties and commitments. I would put myself probably in the category, I'm Presbyterian, but I'm probably more of an ecumenical evangelical. I'd be at home in a Baptist church. There's not a church represented at Beeson that I wouldn't love to preach in. So I probably have been more one to mellow the differences or see a kind of dialectic tension between those differences, both taught in Scripture. So I think I'm a little unique in that regard, denominationally. And another thing that occurs to me is the lay academy really stretched me. 
>>Sweeney:
Oh, yeah? How did it stretch you? You've been teaching lay people for a long time. 
>>Webster:
Well, it stretched me in that ... Well, this may not be a compliment to the Lay Academy. I don't know. (laughter) In students, they do the work. They read the books. We get together. We interact. I come in and they bring something to the task of teaching a dynamic. I can straight lecture. And when I started out in teaching, I straight lectured. Now I try to get all those lecture materials, basically in writing. And then they read and we discuss. The Lay Academy, I have to stand up there for an hour and a half and talk. And I have to hold their attention. And not bore them. 
And I've had lay academy classes, First Peter, Hebrews, James, the Sermon on the Mount, the Psalms, and all of those have been stretching and exhausting - but they have actually worked me harder than the students have. 
>>Sweeney:
That's great. This comes to mind, it's not directly related, I don't think, to your life in ministry, though I think it will resonate with you. I've shepherded theological grad students for many years, a lot of whom have hoped that the Lord would put them to use as teachers in the church, professors or pastors who have significant teaching ministries and so on. And they would come and ask me to help them get teaching appointments somewhere so they can get experience or come and ask for advice about teaching. And I found myself, after a while, saying something very similar to many of them, and it was, if you want to learn how to teach, teach in the church. Teach people who don't have to be there, who aren't trying to earn an “A” from you, who don't feel like they really hope you'll like them because you're going to give them a grade at the end of the term. 
And oftentimes, although we do things in a variety of ways in church context, oftentimes don't do homework either. So you have to sort of figure out how to take people from, you know, very little understanding of a particular topic, who aren't doing a lot of homework on that topic either, and kind of move them along in their discipleship. And goodness, that'll make a teacher out of you. 
>>Webster:
Yeah, it will. Yeah, but that's the church rather than the academy. And we do have a few students who probably like sort of to feel like they're in church when they're in our classes. (laughter) 
>>Sweeney:
I think you could incentivize better behavior on the part of those students. Yeah, that's great. And for people who don't know, people listening to this recording now who don't know about our Lay Academy program, maybe we should tell them. Every semester, we offer usually four classes for lay people, people who most of whom can drive to Beeson and participate in person, though ever since COVID, we've been offering them online as well. And we get our best classroom teachers up there and we offer ministry, serious, meaty, teaching ministry to lay people who are eager to grow in discipleship. We have as many people who are in our Lay Academy program as we have in our regular degree program. So it's a really significant ministry. 
Boy, the poor people who put those agendas for the Lay Academy together from semester to semester are going to miss Dr. Doug Webster because he often said “yes” when they invited him to teach in that program. 
>>Webster:
Well, Derek Thomas, who replaced Jim Pounds, will do a great job. But Jim Pounds really saw it as an important ministry. 
>>Sweeney:
Yeah, it is. All right. I'm about to ask you about your plans during your quote unquote retirement. Before I do, I have in mind a question about what do you think you'll miss? But even as I think about forming that question, I know a little bit already about your plans for retirement. And you're going to continue doing a lot of the things that you've been doing here. You're just not going to get paid as much, or nothing, to do those things. 
So you'll keep preaching. You'll be active in church, that kind of thing. I guess the thing you'll miss is you won't be teaching regular seminary classes. Have you thought about, is that going to be difficult for you? How do you anticipate dealing with that?
>>Webster:
It's going to be terribly difficult. I've operated to this point always with an institution that has provided a platform and facilitated it and all the things that go along with that. And I appreciate institutions, having pastored for many years and what all is involved in creating that context for learning. And now I won't have that. I'll have to be involved, you know, on other auspices. But at 75, you do have to, you don't want to keep working and lose, progressively, the energy that you need to do a good job. But I really I will miss the gift of being given students. Just here are these people you're supposed to teach and they want to be taught. 
Sweeney:
One of the things I love about being part of a seminary environment, and this could be with lay academy students, it could be with regular seminary students, is you're almost guaranteed to arrive and be surrounded by people who just care really deeply about the things of the Lord and ministry. And there are some churches where you can serve, and you can count on that as well. But not in every case can you count on being in a church where that's going to be true for you. I think if I were just about ready to move on, I would miss that. 
>>Webster:
So retirement is a bit scary on that regard. And probably, there's a look I think that comes across my face when people, when I say that I'm going to be leaving Beeson in May, they congratulate me. And I don't quite understand the congratulations. I feel that it's the Lord’s timing. I think you've got to have enough energy to make a geographic change. I think for the sake we should be by family. We have three young grandsons in San Diego who may some time or other be in homeschooling. So I may have changed my grade level significantly. 
>>Sweeney:
Oh my goodness, you thought Beeson students wear you out. 
>>Webster:
So yeah. 
>>Sweeney:
All right. So what are the I haven't asked you yet, but what are your plans for retirement? I already know you're going out to California, but tell our audience, what are you going to do? 
>>Webster:
Well, it's the crazy thing to do, isn't it? Who would leave a very comfortable living in Birmingham, very affordable, a lot of green space and move back to California that's crazy expensive. And it's for the sake of family and being involved that way. 
My daughter and son-in-law, they pastor a church in North Park, which is a kind of gritty urban neighborhood. And we hope to be just involved where we can. Hopefully not in any kind of intrusive way, but hopefully a helpful way in that church. 
>>Sweeney:
Wonderful. All right, last question. Our listeners, our podcast listeners really do like to pray for our people, our students especially, but our guests as well, especially somebody like you who's been teaching here for so long. So if people listening now are going to offer a prayer or two for Dr. Doug Webster and his wife, Virginia, as they move into this retirement phase, how should they pray for you? 
>>Webster:
Well, even in retirement, a lawyer said a few weeks ago about my ministry. Which for me is probably the highest compliment I could get. He said, “Doug hasn't lost the plot.” And I don't want to lose the plot in retirement. We're part of a gospel, a story of salvation that's real and true and trustworthy. And I want to keep communicating that as long as the Lord allows me to do so. I don't want to live forever. I have a good eternal reward. So I'm not clinging to life. Both of us are ready to go. 
And it's occurred to me, it's never occurred to me before this, that at 75, when you reach that, I'm 74 right now, but I'll be 75 in June, when you reach that, it's okay to die. You know, I mean, in your 60s, everybody would perceive it's awfully short, but you get to this ... your family is settled. I don't have any kind of death wish or anything like that. It's just I'm at peace with that. I feel like the ministry has been full and good and anything more is just dessert, I guess. 
>>Sweeney:
I think that's a wonderful biblical example. I'm not trying to make anybody listening now feel bad or anything like that. But as somebody who teaches, preaches in congregations from time to time, and in a local church that has a lot of seniors in it, really, I think intentionally, oftentimes, about teaching in such a way that there's direct, practical application for seniors whose bodies can't do what they used to be able to do, and really ought to be thinking with delight about going to be with the Lord and how best to steward the time that they have left here on earth. And it feels to me like we often neglect that. We have an aging population. We should, people like us in ministry ought to be thinking about how to get people ready to go and be with the Lord. So it's nice to hear from somebody who's retiring who says something like that just outright. 
>>Webster:
Well, you know. You know better than I do. The early church theologians thought all the time about eternity. And that's where the accent was. It wasn't on the beginning of faith. It was on the end of faith. Faithfulness to the end proves faith from the beginning. 
>>Sweeney:
Well, Dr. Webster, we're going to miss you a great deal around here. Thank you for your 19 years of faithful service to Beeson Divinity School, and much more importantly, thank you for more than half a century of faithful, significant, meaty, practical, people-loving, church-loving, God-loving, Bible-loving ministry to lots of different people in lots of different contexts. 
>>Webster:
Thank you very much. 
>>Sweeney:
We love you, Doug Webster. We love you, listeners. Please pray for the students at Beeson Divinity School. Please pray for Doug and Virginia Webster as they wrap things up here at Beeson and in Birmingham. Head back out to be useful to the Lord and family members outside of San Diego, California. Pray that Dr. Webster doesn't lose the plot and that he remains faithful to the Lord as he gets ready to go and be with Him. Goodbye for now. 
>>Mark Gignilliat:

You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.