Beeson Podcast, Episode #
Daniel Lee & Jonathan Fletcher
Date

>>Announcer: 

Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. 


>>Doug Sweeney:

Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I'm your host, Doug Sweeney, and I'm joined today by Beeson THM students Jonathan Fletcher and Daniel Lee. Jonathan also serves as the Program Assistant for Beeson's Global Center, while Daniel serves as the Program Manager for Samford's Center for Worship and the Arts. They're both great students and marvelous colleagues. We want to ask them all about their experience at Beeson, especially in the THM program. So thank you, friends, for joining us. 
>>Daniel:
Thank you for having us.
>>Jonathan:
Absolutely. 
>>Doug:
All right. So let's start out by introducing you to our podcast audience. Can you guys just tell us a little bit about how you came to faith and discern that God wanted you involved in ministry of one kind or another, and then how he brought you to Beeson? We'll get into the THM later, but how'd you get here in the first place? And maybe Daniel, we'll start with you. 
>>Daniel:
Yeah, I grew up in a Christian household, was always involved in church. As a teenager, I started becoming more involved in helping out with the children's ministry at my church, and then eventually the youth ministry as well. From there, you know, you have the existential questions, late in high school, what am I going to do with my life? What does college look like? And I spent a couple years at a community college just trying to figure that out, while actually filling in as a youth pastor at my church. We were between youth pastors, and so I kind of stepped up to fill in that gap. 
And over the course of that period of time, I really felt called to some kind of ministry. I wasn't really sure what that looked like. And so throughout college, kind of wrestled with that question a lot. And for a while, I was thinking pastoral ministry and then ended up deciding on biblical scholarship. 
So from college, I went to get a Master of Divinity to just to kind of cover all of the bases at first and, and then came back to Birmingham to get settled for an interim period. 
>>Doug:
And let me follow up with you real quick before I ask Jonathan the same question. 
>>Daniel:
Certainly. 
>>Doug:
I know from experience that there's lots of prospective students who listen to the podcast. There are people who are wondering, is divinity school, is seminary for me? How do I know if the Lord's calling me into pastoral ministry, or as you said, ministry and biblical scholarship? How did you discern that? Even if you, I mean, you can go to seminary, in order to become a pastor, that's what most people do, or a missionary, or a pastoral counselor, a chaplain. You can also go to seminary as a stepping stone into a PhD program to become a teacher, a professor of some kind. How did you figure out which way you were supposed to go, and was it a really long process, or did you just figure it out quickly? 
>>Daniel:
It was a really long process. I think one of the reasons that it was so long is because I didn't really have a category for biblical scholar for a really long time. My church context, it was kind of pastor or nothing ... which isn't a knock against my upbringing at all, but that was the kind of way that we saw ecclesial involvement. And so that seemed like the closest thing to my giftings, what I wanted to do, and what I wanted to contribute to the church. And so that was the default answer. 
But as I grew more, talked with different people who had different perspectives over the course of time, biblical scholarship became more and more a formed category in my mind and something that I felt like fit better with my particular giftings, my desires. What is it that God gave me to want to do? And so, yeah, but it was a year. 
>>Doug:
For you, Daniel, was that you thinking on your own? Was that you thinking with a few people who were really close to you? Was it some kind of teacher or pastor or somebody who kind of spoke into your life and said, Daniel, I think you should think about this? Or how did it happen?
>>Daniel: 
Yeah, it happened, I think, with a combination of all of those things. Counseling conversations with pastors at my church, particularly the children's pastor who I had grown up under, and then the head pastor who'd been there for as long as I could remember being in that church. They saw things in me that really pulled out a lot of the questions that I had and made them explicit and then we were able to wrestle with those to the point where an answer became clear. 
But also professors that I had in college and I went to the University of Alabama, so it was a secular university, but a lot of the professors that I met there were Christian or were at least open enough to have conversations that helped me figure out exactly how my callings, my skill set, my passions lined up with ways that could meet the church in a really good and hopefully productive way. 
>>Doug:
Nice. All right, Jonathan, I bet your story is a little bit different than Daniel's story. How did you first become a disciple of Jesus, a ministry -minded person? How'd you figure out you're supposed to come to Beeson? 
>>Jonathan:
Yeah, and even before that, I just think it's interesting that we are kind of contrasting in some ways, but since we both are in the same preaching cohort with the Spirit and Power program, I've been able to see your gifting as a scholar that I clearly don't have. 
>>Doug:
All right, you’re here to confirm it, right? 
>>Jonathan:
Absolutely. We both have the same heart, but we very much have different giftings and I have to have him explain things multiple times when he does get there into that scholar land. 
>>Daniel:
That's just because I'm bad at explaining things. 
>>Jonathan:
I don't know if it's that, but yeah, I'm glad that we're kind of here to show different sides of what a THM could do. I grew up in Jackson, Mississippi and still kind of see myself as a Mississippi/Alabama co-resident. But I grew up as the son of a pastor. My mom taught us the ways of the faith at home as well. So I'm very thankful for that. And I prayed to receive Christ when I was in second grade with my mom right before school. 
And then I went into my little elementary school and told all my teachers before school started. And that mark of the joy of new life in Christ has always stuck with me and has been like an image of what it should be like for the rest of my days. So that moment was huge. Throughout middle school, high school, struggled a ton with people pleasing. 
As the son of a pastor, I kind of saw the parable, the older son, the younger son, finding myself much more like the Pharisee and the older son than the prodigal. I was so focused on pleasing other people, pleasing my parents, and thought that I deserved something for doing it. And so I very much saw that as a pattern in my life. And when I saw my dad's ministry and the ups and downs that come with being a pastor, I was like, you know, that's a noble calling. It's not my calling. And it wasn't until after I graduated from Mississippi College, started as a middle school teacher, teaching history, which I loved because I could match the sixth graders energy, much like you can in a camp setting. 
>>Doug:
I no longer can match the energy. 
(laughter)
>>Jonathan:
Yes, sure. But just I loved it. I thought I was going to do that. And then an Isaiah 6 sermon from my pastor, just the most classic kind of text for this really, really opened me up. And I worked with my college pastor at that point, a dear, dear professor at Mississippi College as well, among others, my dad and others, and discerned that there is a gifting toward pastoral ministry. 
And so we moved to Birmingham. My wife is from here. And so we moved here so I could take a teaching job at a Christian school that was close and loved it, worked there for three years, joined a church plant that was planted out of Shades Mountain Baptist. It's called Antioch Community Church and it was a wonderful community that closed in March of 2024 and I kind of knew that that was coming. 
David Parks is a very good friend, and he and I had talked about it. I talked about it with my lead pastor as well. And making the shift over to Beeson was very difficult because we knew that the church was closing eventually, and yet we knew that that was the right thing. We knew that the church was largely in agreement, which was strange. And there was hardly any bitterness or resentment. It was kind of like a beautiful, “we gave it our best effort.” We loved each other and people grew, and people came to faith, and we're thankful for that. 
And so, me shifting over to Beeson was very much a gift of God to be able to come to this community and to kind of have a season of healing. And when I think of Beeson as an institution, I think of this place as a refuge, a place where I've been able to process what has been and get excited about what's to come, too. So this place really does feel like home to me, and I'm very thankful, and always will be thankful for this place. 
>>Doug:
Well, we're thankful God brought you here. All right, now we got to tell our listeners about our new THM program at Beeson and hear from you guys about why you're in it and what God's doing in your lives as you're in it. It occurs to me we probably ought to start for people who aren't just seminary insiders by explaining what these letters mean, right? 
So THM is short for Master of Theology degree, but the main degree program that most seminary students take is Master of Divinity. So if you got Master of Divinity, why do you also need Master of Theology, right? And it turns out that just in the grand scheme of things in the academic world, THM programs are for people who've already done Master of Divinity programs and want more for one reason or another. 
So with that being said, Jonathan, since we started with Daniel last time, we'll start with you this time. Why are you in a THM program and how's God using it to develop you as a disciple and as a minister? 
>>Jonathan:
Yeah, well, I'd be remiss if I didn't quote Dr. Calvert, because I just listened to him say, you never master the divine. 
>>Doug:
That's right. 
>>Jonathan:
So there's always another step. Absolutely. But for me, the THM program was an opportunity to explore theology for the benefit of the church, Big C Church and Little C church. I already had my Master of Divinity. I had a great experience with that, but this for me was an opportunity to live embodied in a community that was practicing Dietrich Bonhoeffer's vision of life together. And it really was that. And that's what I needed when I first got here. 
I needed to feel safe amidst folks who care about the same things as me, who want to raise the banner of Jesus above every situation in their lives. And for me, that really spoke to me and helped me feel like this was the right place for me. And so classes was only on top of that. But in terms of THM, you and I have done some similar paths, some different. For me, I kind of view it as on the class side of things you can take scaled up MDiv classes, you can take scaled down PhD classes, and you can do directed studies with a specific professor. And that access to professors has been incredibly helpful because there were so many times in my MDIV of where I wanted to double click on a particular topic and really wear it out and think deeply about that specific topic. 
So topics like preaching, specific passages, how to address or not address political issues within a certain situation or crisis, pastoral care in certain places, how to avoid burnout. There are so many different issues that I'm passionate about that I just didn't have time to think about. And the THM has given me an opportunity to do that with world-class faculty, which I've really enjoyed. 
>>Doug:
And it's more flexible than most seminary degree programs, right? 
>>Jonathan:
Yes.
>>Doug:
I mean, that's sort of implied in what you're saying. But a lot of degree programs, you have to take this much Bible, this much theology, this much practice of ministry, and so on. In the THM program, not just at Beeson, in most THM programs, but we're talking about ours now, there's just a little bit more freedom to focus on the things you think God has for you. 
>>Jonathan:
Yeah, I had systematic theology separate from church history, and so coming here, I knew no matter what I wanted to do, I wanted to experience some of the history and doctrine sequence, because I thought that was brilliantly put together, and so I wanted to jump into that. I also knew that I wanted to take something on sexuality and pastoral care, kind of somewhere in that space, because I bumped into it a lot in my previous role. I knew that I wanted to kind of explore some New Testament theology with Dr. Linebaugh, which I've been able to do, which was really helpful. So yeah, does that answer the question? 
>>Doug:
It does. And Jonathan, are you in the THM with like a practical, professional ministry goal in mind? Or are you in it mostly because you just want to keep growing as a disciple and kind of deepen that well? 
>>Jonathan:
Yeah, it definitely has a practical bent to it and also the personal growth as a disciple of Jesus. But yes, I definitely have specific issues or focuses to that. So my THM is specifically in preaching and pastoral care right now. 
>>Doug:
Super. All right, Daniel. Jonathan's already said a bunch of stuff about the THM. What would you add? And then let's get you to telling us, why are you in the THM program? 
>>Daniel:
Yeah, I mean, I would just say that one of the, like you highlighted, you and I both have been able to customize our experience in the THM program for our particular end goals in mind. And so one of the questions that I had from the get-go was, how can I best use this to help me prepare for a potential and eventual PhD program one day? So can I sharpen my biblical languages? Can I chase certain rabbits that I want to continue chasing long-term? Can I help define what those rabbits are from the beginning? 
And so over the course of the last little while, as we've both been venturing through the program, it's been really nice to see some of those questions get answered, some of the places where I need sharpening get sharpened, because, of course, you spend three or however many years in a Master of Divinity program, and you really don't master the divine. And so you come out oftentimes, I think, with more questions than you have answers in a good way. But you still kind of want to, if you still want to chase those down, the THM is a really good way to do that. 
>>Doug:
You told us earlier, you think God wants you to be a Bible scholar, a Bible prof. Does that mean that during your THM at Beeson, you've really kind of majored on Bible classes, or how have you decided what classes to take? 
>>Daniel:
Yeah, I mean, I've decided what classes to take in conversation with my advisor, but all of those have been aimed at a particular thesis and/or just generally a broad topic in mind. And so they've definitely all focused on Bible. I've done biblical theology. I've done a couple of, or am currently doing the second of two PhD courses in Bible. And then I've done a directed study. So I've kind of hit all of the things that you've talked about in biblical interpretation. 
And so each one has helped sharpen a particular area I felt needed sharpening. And I'm hoping to, in the future, work a little bit more on my Hebrew and kind of get the thesis underway. 
>>Jonathan:
We've also seen each other at PhD seminars, which has been fun to step into as well, because that's very much what you would be stepping into. 
>>Daniel:
Yeah. Definitely. Doing the THM allows you to kind of straddle both sides of the fence a little bit in the best way possible because you can dip your toe in the PHD water, you can remain comfortably in the MDiv sphere and take from both and hopefully give in both the best of what those particular programs can provide. 
>>Doug:
And Daniel, you mentioned very briefly, you're going to write a thesis. 
>>Daniel:
Yes. 
>>Doug:
Tell people who don't already know, why is that a practically significant thing for you to do as part of your THM? 
>>Daniel:
Yeah. Well, it helps you focus in on a particular topic of study and really be able to digest it comprehensively, like you were talking earlier. And then for me, it also helps me figure out the lay of the land on a particular topic, hopefully pertinent to my PhD project one day. And so it's hopefully going to help me prepare for that and work on my writing, refine the way that I articulate myself on the page and my ability to digest sources in a way that's productive for good conversation at the scholarly level. 
>>Doug:
Yeah, that's great. And I wonder too, I know again, it's a little inside baseball, but on a lot of applications, you have to submit a writing sample. It doesn't have to be a thesis. It could be a seminar paper or something, but you kind of have to show supervisors that you can do the kind of. they want you to do. Are you thinking your thesis might provide you with a writing sample, or can you do it whether or not? 
>>Daniel:
Definitely. And a lot of the classes that I've been taking, I've also had that in mind when it comes to writing the final project or whatever it is that the professor assigns. How can I use this to build towards my thesis and ultimately a productive writing sample that could function well on a PhD application, but also as kind of a ground-level base of research that I can use moving forward. 
>>Doug:
All right, next question. And again, this is sort of for people who want to get a feel for what Beeson is like. In this case, they're getting it through two THM students, so you've got significant experience already in seminary life. and you're particularly kind of smart guys working at a high level in biblical and theological studies. But still, I think you could describe pretty faithfully for others, prospective students and other kinds of people, what's Beeson like? Have you had favorite experiences? Have you had favorite professors? If you had to describe, let's just say, let's limit ourselves in this question to academic life at Beeson. You guys are academically inclined guys. What's academic life at Beeson like and how would you describe it and maybe even commend it to a prospective Beeson student? And maybe I'm looking at you, Daniel, we'll start with you this time. 
>>Daniel:
Yeah, I mean the ability to ... a short story that'll kind of sum up my perspective on that. I did a directed study with Dr. Gerald Bray over the summer and the first thing that he did when I said, okay, I want to Study the history of biblical interpretation. Where should we start? He slid his textbook that he wrote across the desk and said, let's start here. 
>>Doug:
I know what's in this book for sure. 
>>Daniel:
Yeah. And he wrote the textbook on it. And so that I think speaks well of the faculty and their academic abilities. And thus, if you're studying at a high level, it's very helpful to be able to rely on people like that. So I can go to him or Dr. Gignilliat or Dr. Linebaugh, the three of the professors I've had classes with, and know that they can point me in the right directions on any of the given topics that I'm interested in. 
>>Doug:
Anything you'd want to add on that one, Jonathan? If you were describing Beeson, and you're just sticking to academic life for now, what would you say to people? 
>>Jonathan:
Yeah, the story that came to mind when you shared that was when I first got here, we were considering naming my son, who's now eight months old, we were considering naming him August as a gentle nod to Augustine. And then I was like, well, I know Dr. Chatrow has written a book on him. I wonder ... and so I asked him a question and James K. Smith's like on the road with St. Augustine was, a big impact there, too. And so I was like, do you like that book? What was your thought on it? And he was like, “Oh, yeah, Jamie.” And I was like, oh, yeah, we're calling him Jamie. Yeah, I know him, too. I just wanted to ... so, it very much you're in a different you're in a different ballpark right now. 
And then when I found out that Timothy Tennant was going to be my next door neighbor in the Global Center, I was like, oh, okay, this is a little ... 
>>Doug:
Not a bad neighbor. 
>>Jonathan:
Yeah, not a bad neighbor. And truly, scholarship aside, a fantastic neighbor as well. Being stuck between him and David Parks is incredible. So yeah. 
>>Doug:
Alright, now we've been sort of in the stratosphere talking about academic life at Beeson. Let's get real practical. Both you guys, I know because I know you, you're married. Both you guys have jobs on top of doing a THM. How's that going for you? Is it killing you? How do you make this work? How do you balance doing a THM at Beeson with doing a job for Beeson, for Samford School of the Arts, and being good family men all at the same time. Tell the truth. Daniel, we'll start with you. 
>>Daniel:
Yes, sir. 
>>Doug:
How tired are you? 
>>Daniel:
First, I took the first year pretty quick. So I did a fall semester, a Jan term, then a PhD seminar, then a directed study in the summer. And that was a lot, on top of my wife being in law school and me working full time. And so this year, I decided to cut back a little bit and just do a class in the fall and a class in the spring. And that's been a lot better. So the work/life balance, it wasn't unduly burdensome, but given all of the other things that I have going on, that first year was definitely a sprint. And a sprint that I don't think I could have kept up as consistently as maybe I would have wanted. 
So yeah, definitely happy to cut back, but also happy to be able to dive a little bit deeper into each of the topics that I'm studying instead of just trying to rush through them. So I think that's beneficial. But the balance of the class and the work has not been ... the classes have not been very overwhelming, especially given the fact that one of those was a directed study and one of them a PhD class, on top of a Jan term right before it. So, the reading is really high quality and the assignments have all been ... 
Jonathan:
It's so much easier to read and dive into subjects you already care about and are passionate about. I mean that is so much ... Even when you were in middle school or high school. When you were assigned a book and you begrudgingly flip through every page. It's just different than when you're reading Dr. Bray's History of Interpretation, which is a book that you already wanted to break open anyways. It's an excuse to do it. 
>>Daniel:
And that's really good. Because the THM is so flexible it provides you the structure to do the things that you like to do anyway, but have a hard time fitting into your schedule. And so it kind of makes you fit them into your schedule a little bit in a really good and beneficial way. 
>>Doug:
And you have caught your breath. 
>>Daniel:
Oh yes, I've definitely caught my breath. 
>>Doug:
Nice. 
>>Daniel:
And I'm ready to, I'm in a PhD seminar right now and chomping at the bit to get in and discuss all the things we've been talking about. 
>>Doug:
Wonderful. All right, Jonathan, you have little ones at home. There's lots of reasons why you're probably tired. How has this balancing act gone for you? 
>>Jonathan:
Yeah, I've tried to read John Calvin to them and it just doesn't work. 
>>Doug:
No?
>>Jonathan: 
So they don't really enjoy it. They do like to poke through the big books though. That is fun. Yeah, so just purely on the practical side. I know myself and I know that I cannot do any meaningful reading or writing past nine o 'clock at night. And so for me, early mornings are when I get things done. So and I picked up Cal Newport's Slow Productivity. He also wrote Deep Work. And from those books, I just realized like slow, faithful returning to the books every single day, bit by bit, planning. continuing to faithfully show up for family, faithfully showing up for church, friends, all those things. But then every day, other than a Sabbath day, like checking in on one of those classes and chipping away at things. I'm a big to-do list person, so I always have a running sticky note on my desk as well. Those kinds of very practical things have been very helpful for me. 
>>Doug:
Fantastic. 
>>Daniel:
Yeah, I'll say, one of the things that I try to do is less the schedule and more just a page count a day, I think has been really helpful. Like if I can hit 20 pages a day, I know that I'll, or whatever the number is, I know that by the time I need to have this reading done, it'll be done, and it'll be done thoroughly. That way, I'm also not trying to cram 100 pages over the course of the last few days before the assignment's due or the reading needs to be done or the lecture's happening or whatever it is. So, yeah, that's been a good way for me to break things up. 
>>Doug:
All right, last question. We do have a bunch of listeners who really enjoy praying for Beeson and whose prayers avail much. And they like to pray for Beeson students, not just for Beeson as an institution, but for the real people of Beeson. If some people listening to us now want to offer a prayer on behalf of Jonathan Fletcher and Daniel Lee, how would you like them to be praying for you in days ahead? Jonathan, let's start with you. 
Jonathan:
Yeah, thank you. My two kids. I have a two and a half year old and an eight month old, and the eight month old is very much hitting that eight month sleep regression. So sometimes it's difficult to go into the night knowing that you may wake up for 30, 45 minutes here and there and there. And when you hear screaming from a child, your body reacts a certain way. 
And so one of the things that we believe as disciples of Jesus is that we're training our bodies under the Holy Spirit, but we're training our bodies to submit. So even when my body is yelling and telling me to sub my wife in or to be frustrated, it's to remember, for me, that picture that this is the kind of behavior I sometimes take to the Lord, and He continues to return to me with delight in me as a son. And so I try to remember that, and would very much appreciate prayer to better remember that as well. 
>>Doug:
All right. Daniel, how about you? How can we pray for you? 
>>Daniel:
Well, like I've mentioned, I'm currently in the midst of a PhD seminar, and so a prayer so that I can get the reading done on time would be great. A bit more long-term, prayers that I could be both intellectually and spiritually formed into the kind of scholar that can participate in the kinds of conversations that I'd like to for the sake of the church in a way that can substantively produce and support robust discipleship, biblical engagement, and theological reflection. 
>>Doug:
That's fantastic. Alright listeners, this has been Daniel Lee and Jonathan Fletcher, two of Beeson's finest. They're both THM students and busy ministers of the gospel and husbands and family men and all kinds of other things as well. Please pray for them and their studies. Pray that God would have his way in their development as disciples and in the future of their ministries. Pray for Jonathan's fatherhood as you do. Know that we're praying for you. We're delighted that you've tuned in. We love you and we say goodbye for now. 
>>Mark Gignilliat:

You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.