Phyllis Theresa Shepherd

Published on June 30, 2019

rosedale garden sign "They didn’t have the levels of violence within the community like now. No. Even, even uh, African-American white relations were different."

Chapters

A Sacred Harps' Upbringing and Singing School

Oliver talks about his upbringing in the Sacred Harps tradition and Sacred Harps singing school. He discusses the variety of singing parts and Sacred Harp hymn books.

Play Segment

Disagreements, Sing-Ins, and the Draw of Sacred Harps Music

Oliver tells about the differing views in the Sacred Harps community. He discusses his experiences at sing-ins and what draws him to Sacred Harps music.

Play Segment

Sacred Harps Worship

Oliver describes Sacred Harps worship.

Play Segment

Favorite Hymn and the Sacred Harps Community

Oliver talks about his favorite song and tells more about the Sacred Harps community and its activities.

Play Segment

The Sacred Harps Demographic, Sing-In Attendance, and Shape Music Notes

Oliver responds to a few questions from students.

Play Segment

Oliver Sings Wondrous Love

Oliver and others sing "Wondrous Love".

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Theological Implications in Hymn Wording

Oliver talks about disagreement regarding the wording of some songs. He tells a couple of stories and responds to final questions from the students.

Play Segment

Closeness in the Sacred Harps Community and Singing the Preacher Down

Play Segment

Sacred Harps Hospitality and Announcing the Convention

Play Segment

Transcript

JAMES BROWN: I always turn the machine on and run the volume up about half
way and get the tone in the middle. And I say, on the first of the tape I say,
"My name is Jim Brown, this is May the 20th. I am at the house of Mr. Milton
Oliver, about a mile and a half south of Collinsville and then up on the
mountain. And I want to see it the machine is working." And we have now
determined that it is [laughter]. Mr. Oliver, can you tell us where you are from
and how long you have been in this area?

MILTON OLIVER: I have been around here about seventy-five years. I was born and
raised here.

JAMES BROWN: Your folks were from here too?

MILTON OLIVER: Right.

JAMES BROWN: How about your grand folks?

MILTON OLIVER: They were, too. My grandfather Reed lived in Collinsville and out
here, too. And my grandfather Oliver lived about two miles or three north of here.

JAMES BROWN: On the mountain?

MILTON OLIVER: On the mountain.

JAMES BROWN: And how about, how about your wife?

MILTON OLIVER: Well now she is--

JAMES BROWN: Is she from this area?

MILTON OLIVER: About five miles south of here.

JAMES BROWN: A long way off [laughter].

MILTON OLIVER: Where the crow flies [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: We, we have heard some sacred harp music. We have listened to
tapes. Everybody has listened to tapes on the way in. And I have tried to get
them interested because it is one of my favorite kinds of music, but I, I, I
cannot give them an appreciation for what this music means to somebody who grew
up in it. Like somebody who really grew up in it. When did you first hear this music?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, I do not remember that far back. I was born and raised in
it. And that is about as far back as I can go. I guess twenty-seven in
seventy-five years.

JAMES BROWN: What is your first memory of it?

MILTON OLIVER: Well…

JAMES BROWN: Did you go to singing school?

MILTON OLIVER: I did.

JAMES BROWN: How old were you?

MILTON OLIVER: I was probably six or seven.

JAMES BROWN: Did you already know how to sing by the time you went?

MILTON OLIVER: I would not think so. Not much anyway.

JAMES BROWN: Tell us about a singing school. How long was it and what did it cost?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, it did not cost anything, really. My uncle taught it, and
he was doing it for a donation to a church over there close to where he lived.
And I, we did not pay anything. It was two weeks long. Ten days, I guess.

JAMES BROWN: How many people were in, how many students, and where did they come from?

MILTON OLIVER: All locally. I guess maybe fifteen, twenty at the most.

JAMES BROWN: How old? All six or seven?

MILTON OLIVER: All ages. Mostly, well, no real old people in there like me now.
Course I go to them now if I get a chance.

JAMES BROWN: To a singing school?

MILTON OLIVER: Yes.

JAMES BROWN: Do they still have a singing school?

MILTON OLIVER: Well not around here, but I have been to Cane Creek. Jeff
Shepherd taught the one over there two or three years ago. I went over there, I
do not know. Did not go every night, but I did go some. He is a good teacher.

JAMES BROWN: Well how do they teach you how? How to you start somebody who has
never sung at a-?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, they turn the first book, rudiments, and I think the first
three things that consists of music are harmony, time, and rhythms or something
like that. And that is about all I remember of that, really. Three things. And
then they go from there, and they pick up the four notes.

JAMES BROWN: Fa, so, la, and mi.

MILTON OLIVER: Fa, so, la, mi. And they put a scale or lines and spaces on a
blackboard, and they start, well usually “f” for the start then go up. I
cannot hardly go to the top “f,” but you learn to run up and down "fa, so,
la, fa, so, la, mi, fa" one through eight. Which would be the same thing as the
seventh shape "do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti, do". Same tones I mean.

JAMES BROWN: Same sound of the notes.

MILTON OLIVER: Same sound. As the four notes, only they use the, in the four
notes they use the “fa” one through eight three times, “so” twice, and
“la” twice, “mi” only once. Now why, I do not know. But they do not use
the “mi” but once. They sort of, what, what do you call it, show partiality
towards [unclear] [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Well after they teach you the scale, then, what do they do? Do they
teach you intervals or?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, now most of them, they will pick a simple song and sing and-

JAMES BROWN: Everybody singing tenor line or just a-?

MILTON OLIVER: Everybody sings tenor line. And they would try to get you to copy
what they are trying to do, mostly. I do not know, it was more or less a crude
way of going at it I guess.

JAMES BROWN: Do they ever get to parts in the singing school, ever do more than
one part?

MILTON OLIVER: They finally work in that and get, they like to get someone that
is familiar with the different parts and then get beginners around them and pick
it up from there.

JAMES BROWN: But by the end of the ten days or two weeks, the kids in the
singing school can sing different parts?

MILTON OLIVER: Sing, some of them can. Now back when I first remembered, we had
the White book, and it only had five, three, three parts, not five.

JAMES BROWN: Did not have the alto?

MILTON OLIVER: Did not have the alto. The women, ladies, had to sing bass.

JAMES BROWN: Ladies sang bass?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, they used that, they were an octave above the men.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: But if they did sing bass and alto was sort of closely related I reckon.

JAMES BROWN: When did they put in the alto? Do you know?

MILTON OLIVER: 1910 I think, in the James book. Cooper, I do not know if it came
out with, when it was first printed or not. You do not know where your old book
is, do you? It is,

PAULINE OLIVER: The old one, oldest one?

MILTON OLIVER: Yeah, the one that your granddaddy had. I think his had four
parts then. Back in 1902, 1903 or 1904, something like that.

JAMES BROWN: Well they did not get four parts in the Denson Revision of the
White book until later.

MILTON OLIVER: 1910

JAMES BROWN: Oh, that one. Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: And the White book, I wish I had told her to bring a White book
out here, too. I hope she can find it.

JAMES BROWN: So when you went to singing school, did you go four parts or three
parts when they taught you? They taught you out of a three part?

MILTON OLIVER: Three part.

JAMES BROWN: Three part book.

MILTON OLIVER: I did not know anything about alto. And I cannot sing it anyway [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: I noticed there is fewer people singing that usually. There is more
on the other parts, are there not?

MILTON OLIVER: I guess more on soprano, tenor.

JAMES BROWN: Tenor or treble

MILTON OLIVER: And maybe, sometimes, not too many on treble. You have got to
work pretty hard on treble. [Dr. Brown laughs] Heard my uncle say one time that
he used to sing bass, and he said that is too light of work for me, says I am
going to triple it [unclear] [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Did you ever teach any singing schools?

MILTON OLIVER: No.

JAMES BROWN: Or just helped a bunch of people?

MILTON OLIVER: I do not know that much about it.

JAMES BROWN: That is not what Terry Wooten says, but-

MILTON OLIVER: Well, he might exaggerate sometimes [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Well, did you, once you went to a singing school, did you stay in
it regularly or your family was going to them all the time anyway?

MILTON OLIVER: All, almost, not every Sunday, but there was singing somewhere
around in lots of places. My grandfather organized singings in, I used to know
how about many different churches he went to and had annual singings there. But
they began to fade out. Here. [Shows Dr. Brown book] This is a first one they
have, and it has got four parts. I have got it upside down, but I can do about
as well upside down as I could right. See, it has four parts, I do not know what
year that book was printed. See, the first part of is it gone. But it is one of
the earlier Cooper books.

JAMES BROWN: That is pushing a hundred years old is it not?

MILTON OLIVER: It is. I do not see-

JAMES BROWN: Do you mind if we hand it around?

MILTON OLIVER: Not, not a bit in the world.

JAMES BROWN: That is like a museum piece.

MILTON OLIVER: This is-

JAMES BROWN: But they are all longer than they are tall, are they not?

MILTON OLIVER: This is the latest edition of the Cooper book. And it has four
parts, too.

JAMES BROWN: Here, here is something that has always bothered me. How come these
are longer than they are tall, and most of, most of the hymn books you have in a
downtown church is taller than they are long. What is the difference?

MILTON OLIVER: I cannot explain that.

JAMES BROWN: Just fashion?

MILTON OLIVER: I reckon it is just the design. Now here is a White book, but it
is not many of them have four parts in it.

JAMES BROWN: Most of them are three part?

MILTON OLIVER: This is a 1910 edition. See, there is three there, three there.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: And sometimes, this is J. L. White, now it is not the original B.
F. White. There is the major B. F. White.

JAMES BROWN: This is the one who did it in Georgia and it came across an 1844 book.

MILTON OLIVER: Right, course this is a 1910, I think. J.L. White edition. See, I
did not, I was not fortunate enough to, fourth edition with supplement.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: And, J.L. White, see right there.

JAMES BROWN: I see. Well this, is like when it first started. This book is more
like when you first started with the three parts.

MILTON OLIVER: Right, only there have been additions to it.

JAMES BROWN: More songs?

MILTON OLIVER: More songs. Good songs in there. I think. It might be a matter of
opinion, but-

JAMES BROWN: Now, now these two people I get tangled up when I try to talk about
this because I do not know anything about the Cooper Book, but this is a Cooper
Book, and what do you call this book?

MILTON OLIVER: This is a ‘91 edition, they call it right there.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: It came down from the James Book, Denson Book, and then the ‘91 edition.

JAMES BROWN: So you just call it the ‘91 edition vs Cooper Book.

MILTON OLIVER: Right.

JAMES BROWN: And they both use four shapes?

MILTON OLIVER: Right.

JAMES BROWN: And some of the songs are almost exactly the same in each book?

MILTON OLIVER: Practically the same, might be a little wording different.

JAMES BROWN: Tell me why there is a, tell me why there is a little friction
between people who sing out of the Cooper Book and people who sing out of the
‘91s. Discuss where you got people there is friction, but I do not know. Is
not there a little jealousy?

MILTON OLIVER: I believe there is. I do not know it, but I believe it. There
might have been a little jealousy with the White Book and the James Book. I
think, I am going to tell this if it is alright, what my daddy got in to at
Ashville down here. They sung in the White Book, and he had a James Book. And
went, they got a truck and truck load of them went down there. I did not go, I
remember it, but I did not go.

JAMES BROWN: About what year would that have been?

MILTON OLIVER: I would guess around early 1930s, or late ‘20s. And they
stopped them at the door, would not let them go in [laughter]. So Daddy, he did
not have a book like they had, and he just stayed outside. They said that is
what they told him [laughter]. And well you know they have a friction in
churches sometimes about where you place the piano.

JAMES BROWN: That is right.

MILTON OLIVER: Someone on one side of the other, one side of the house and the
other one wants something on-

JAMES BROWN: That would spilt a church, would it not [laughter]?

MILTON OLIVER: Not much difference.

JAMES BROWN: Yeah. Now I have not been to any singings up on the mountain here,
but I have been to some down closer to Birmingham, and I went to one at the Old
County Line Baptist Church and sat next to a woman. And she was not just
ancient, and she said that she was the first woman to ever lead a song in that
church. Do you remember when the churches you went to and men sat on one side
and women on the other, and only men led the songs?

MILTON OLIVER: Well I will tell you what I heard. That they would not let the
women folks get on the front bench back in the first singings, say in 1840 and
1850 and along in there. And I do not think they directed songs either.

JAMES BROWN: By the time you came along, they directed songs.

MILTON OLIVER: As far as I know. I cannot long wise women getting in a crowd
then [unclear] [laughter]

JAMES BROWN: Well you have got to be careful because your wife is listening [laughter].

MILTON OLIVER: Well, I feel like I am protected, you know [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Well the main thing I would like to get at, having some background
of where you are in your life is, what hold, what hold this music has on you.
What is it about it that makes you go Sunday after Sunday, year after year?

MILTON OLIVER: That would be hard to answer right now. I might have to think on
that a day or two. I do not know.

JAMES BROWN: I have only got a forty five minute tape [laughter].

MILTON OLIVER: In other words. You know, you asked me the song.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

[Mrs. Oliver speaks, but it is not audible on the recording]

JAMES BROWN: [To Mrs. Oliver] He has been like that ever since you knew him? And
you married him anyway? [laughter] [To Milton Oliver] Why, why do you like it?

MILTON OLIVER: Well-

JAMES BROWN: That is a hard question for anybody to answer, I know, on anything now.

MILTON OLIVER: Well, you take this song here, you asked me yesterday about. I
cannot read it without my glasses on, but the words of that, you know, it seems
as though that it was a seamen or a bunch of seamen in a storm. And that song,
the way it was describing it, and they were in bad times. And-

JAMES BROWN: “When through the torn sail, the wild tempest is streaming. When
o’er the dark waves the red lightning is gleaming. Nor hope, nor hope lends a
ray, the poor seamen to cherish, we fly to our Maker, save, Lord or we perish.”

MILTON OLIVER: In other words, they, they went to the Lord, the seamen, there.
And I think, and I think if you compare that with your ups and downs in life,
and when you go so far, why you go to the Lord for your help and support.

JAMES BROWN: Is this music, is it first and foremost a worship? A kind of a worship?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, to me it is. It is not a thing some do, make a sort of
picnic out of it, you know. That is alright, that is just some junk I had in
there, right on in there, does not make any difference.

JAMES BROWN: You do not usually have a sermon on the singing days, do you?

MILTON OLIVER: Sometimes, in south Alabama, where they use this book, they will
sing until, say, eleven o’clock and might have an intermission before eleven.
Then they have the preaching hour. And when the preaching hour is over, say, we
will say twelve, they spread lunch, and then the rest of the day is singing.

JAMES BROWN: I have had the feeling up here that, that doing all the work, doing
all the singing takes the place of the sermon. It is like a sermon in song.

MILTON OLIVER: A sermon in song.

JAMES BROWN: Would you agree with that?

MILTON OLIVER: Well-

JAMES BROWN: And everybody is doing the same, everybody is on the same page and
doing it the same time. There is not one person.

MILTON OLIVER: You notice right there is a Bible verse.

JAMES BROWN: Luke 7:50 “Thy faith has saved thee, go in peace.” At the top
of every one of them, they got a Bible verse?

MILTON OLIVER: Well I do not know if every one, but a lot of them do have Bible
verses under the heading of the song or whatever is the name of it. Course, they
have some unusual names in here, you know. Why, I do not know, they just name
them a place where they live or something like that.

JAMES BROWN: I have seen them named after places in Tennessee and Alabama and
Cincinnati and something like that.

MILTON OLIVER: Now they have got some names in here I would not know how to
pronounce them, really.

JAMES BROWN: What do you think about round notes?

MILTON OLIVER: I cannot handle it.

JAMES BROWN: You told me the other day a story about a choir director. Would you
mind telling these people? They did not hear this story.

MILTON OLIVER: Well, the church where she was born and raised, and belongs to,
now, they hired a choir director, and she would bring in sheet music. They
wanted me to get up in the choir and sing, and handed me a sheet of music. I
could not; it did not mean a thing in the world to me, really. I know where the
keys are on the lines and spaces, but I might not say them like they are
supposed to. And, I just, I could not handle it.

JAMES BROWN: So, if you, if you read the shapes, you just cannot read the round
notes? You have to learn to read it all over again?

MILTON OLIVER: I do not read, I do not read the lines and spaces. I just have an
idea where the-

JAMES BROWN: Look at the shape and know where it is. And that is all you need, right?

MILTON OLIVER: That is all I use. Now, that might not be the right way to do it,
but that is how I use it.

JAMES BROWN: I, sometimes I have seen it written without the five lines. I have
just seen the bar and the shapes, and people who can read the shapes do not
really need those five lines.

MILTON OLIVER: That is right.

JAMES BROWN: Are you that way?

MILTON OLIVER: They are a lot better off than I am [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: What is it about the music? It is a, it is a different kind of music.

MILTON OLIVER: It is. Some of the music in these songs, I, I believe could be
improved on. I do. Now, I would not want Hugh McGraw and [laughter] JL, John
Ethards, I believe. He had a heart attack the other day and sung a little down
there but, to know that I said that. But I believe it could be improved. The
music could be.

JAMES BROWN: Do you write any?

MILTON OLIVER: No, I could not. I tried to put notes on some [unclear] the round
note stuff that the choir director had, and I could not tell what I put in
there. It is so small, I could not read it, so [laughter] I just give up.

JAMES BROWN: Where about, when you go to these singings, how many people, do you
recognize everybody there usually when you go to a singing? Or it depends on how
close it is?

MILTON OLIVER: Most of the time I do. Now, year before last, there was a group
that came down from close to Washington. I did not know them. I had to meet them
outside, and I had a little notebook pad, and I asked them to write their names
on that. And I tried to remember their names, and I am not doing as well as I
would like to on that. But, I think it is a good policy if you can call a
person's name. Maybe the first name. As old as I am, I can call them by their
first name and get by with it. They do not mind anyway.

JAMES BROWN: What I was trying to get at was the sense of community. You know,
when you go to one church all the time, you know who is going to be there, and
who is not most of the time.

MILTON OLIVER: Right.

JAMES BROWN: But, when you, if you are going to a different place every Sunday,
singing here, and singing there, and singing over here, is there still a sense
of, what kind of community is it? What brings you all together?

MILTON OLIVER: It is similar, very similar. Maybe, I do not know what would be
the word to use, but, maybe they are sort of in the low class like I am
[laughter], or a little above me. In other words, I can hob nob with them and
get by with them.

JAMES BROWN: Well, are you a member of a regular church?

MILTON OLIVER: Yes.

JAMES BROWN: Now I have heard preachers criticize this going off every Sunday to
a different singing, because, you might be there Sunday night or you might be
there Wednesday night, or whenever else the church is open, but you are not
there for the Sunday morning Sunday school and sermon.

MILTON OLIVER: Right, a lot of times no.

JAMES BROWN: How do you, if a preacher were to say to you, well, this is bad
because you are missing Sunday service, what do you say?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, I am going to tell you what a, a man told a preacher. Not
mean, but, you probably have seen his daughter, Jewel Wooten, now. He told, the
preacher got on his case about not coming to church, and he told him, he says,
“When you come up with something better than what I have got, he says I will
be there” [laughter]. Now I do not know, I do not know, I do not know if I
would tell a preacher that [laughter]. He might be larger than I am [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: That is a good line. I have just, I am still poking around trying
to find out what is it that makes it better.

MILTON OLIVER: Well, see-

JAMES BROWN: I know if you, if you were to ask me something why I like what I
like, I probably could not say either, but I-

MILTON OLIVER: Well, you have the words in a lot of these songs, mostly taken
from the Bible, and when you put the music to it, why it is sort of like putting
icing on the cake to use somebody else's expression, you know. It seems like it
make the things better. Now, I do not, well, I better not say this, I was going
to talk about somebody, but I better not.

JAMES BROWN: Okay. Can you talk and not use a name?

MILTON OLIVER: I could, but it would be easy to point out [laughter] who I was
talking about I guess.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: What I am saying is I have heard preachers get up and preach,
scream and holler. Now you may like that and you may not.

JAMES BROWN: I do not.

MILTON OLIVER: And I could not understand what they said. Now, if I do not get
the communication or the words that he is saying, I, I am just hearing a noise,
so to speak.

JAMES BROWN: And you have not got any problem with communication with these songs.

MILTON OLIVER: Well if I have got a book, I can go with it.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: Now, if they sung a different verse, I might not understand it.
The music and the pronunciation of the words by song is not perfect. You know it…

JAMES BROWN: Yes.

MILTON OLIVER: as well as I do [laughter]. It could be improved on, I think.
But, I do not know if you know Jim Collins, or not?

JAMES BROWN: I do, used to live in Birmingham.

MILTON OLIVER: Yeah, and I think he is in Montgomery now.

JAMES BROWN: He is.

MILTON OLIVER: He was talking to be one time, and I said, we need a singing
school on the pronunciation of words. Singing might be a little different, and
he disagreed with me. He did not think there ought to be, but I did. Now I thought-

JAMES BROWN: He likes it just like it is, just leave it alone.

MILTON OLIVER: Just like it is. He says I want it rough, and whatever, and just
leave it.

JAMES BROWN: This is the man--he is the editor of the Folklife journal Alabama
is just starting up. Jim Collins.

MILTON OLIVER: No he is, he is well educated. Now he should know what he is, I mean-

JAMES BROWN: And he has actually written a hymn has he not? Does he not have a
hymn in the new book?

MILTON OLIVER: Yes in here.

JAMES BROWN: In the ‘91 edition?

MILTON OLIVER: Yeah, I could not tell you where it is, but he has one in here.

JAMES BROWN: And he is fairly young man, early forties I think? Maybe?

MILTON OLIVER: I guess so.

JAMES BROWN: Mid-forties?

MILTON OLIVER: Maybe.

JAMES BROWN: That is younger all the time.

MILTON OLIVER: Yes. I like Jim. He is a good, and I like singing-

JAMES BROWN: Would you like to see the pronunciation polished up?

MILTON OLIVER: A little bit better, because, see, I am not well educated. I
might have barely gotten through high school, but that is as far as I got, and
did not do a good job of that. And I think that if it is pronounced right, to me
it is a little better.

JAMES BROWN: Better. Your wife handed me this picture. What is this? When is this?

MILTON OLIVER: That would be.

JAMES BROWN: Looks a whole lot-

MILTON OLIVER: I am going to have to go for my daughter’s side. She was about
six, seven years old, and she is forty-one now. It has been about thirty-five
years ago.

JAMES BROWN: Is this a dinner on the grounds here?

MILTON OLIVER: Dinner on the ground, yeah. That is lemonade in a tub [laughter].
That is over in Georgia. And-

JAMES BROWN: You know what singing it was? That is a wonderful picture.

MILTON OLIVER: That is, that is the man that was boss of it, the chairman, Mr.
Pope. He is dead now. And all these kids here are, [unclear] some of them have
gotten grandkids. My daughter has gotten grandkids. And-

JAMES BROWN: You remember what church it was or what it is in?

MILTON OLIVER: No, it was above somewhere up there, and that is about as close
as I can get. I do not think they had but one singing up there. And he had the
lady from a newspaper, weekly newspaper to come out and take pictures. And I
bought one of the pictures. I, I do not know if I am on the picture or not, but
I was there.

JAMES BROWN: What is your favorite song in the book, and why?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, it is that 224, I guess, would be my favorite in a sense.
Back in World War II, I was, I guess you could call it a merchant seaman. I
sailed across the planet, and I have been in storms. And one time we got in one
and the rudder was in two positions, and it was so rough it broke one of them,
and it just flopped over to one side. And they had to turn this one that way
this way to keep it on even keel. And I do not know, it just seems like it
appeals to me. I can go back to something like that. One time we got in some
rough water, and I was on a tanker that time. And coming back we hit a storm,
and they had to hit that thing as the waves were coming this way, they had to
hit that ship straight into it. And it was empty. And when that rear end would
go up, it rudder come out of the water. I stood on the back side of it, and the
water would come that close to where I was standing and sink down. It was rough.
I thought, well I better not stay out here long, might get a bigger one than
that and wash me off. How come me in the merchant marines, well, they examined
me, they told me, said, “You are color blind.” And I was trying to get in
the Navy. And I got to thinking about that. If they did get me in the Navy, I
would have to go to kitchen, and I could not cook [laughter], so I decided I
would pick something I wanted to do.

JAMES BROWN: Tell these folks about the Lookout Mountain Convention. That, that
is your favorite sing, kind of your home sing, is it not? Pine Grove? It is, in
the Minutes book, it says fourth Sunday and Saturday before in August. Lookout
Mountain Convention, Pine Grove Church, four miles south of Collinsville,
Alabama, east of highway eleven. Well, you go on out this road to get to it?

MILTON OLIVER: You can go down here about a mile, take left and go a half mile,
and it would put you right there.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: Or you can go this road over here, this house at the top, go down
it and you dead end, and go turn about a quarter over there and you are there.

JAMES BROWN: Well, how many people will be at this singing now? Not counting
north Virginia people who come in, but how many, not counting your delegation
from up toward Washington. How many folks will come to it?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, we will have, not counting say the Terry Wooten bunch and all?

JAMES BROWN: Well, yeah. People from within the state and all, you can count them.

MILTON OLIVER: It would be seventy-five, maybe.

JAMES BROWN: On Saturday and Sunday, too? You will average seventy-five?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, sometimes a singing is larger on Saturday than it is on Sunday.

JAMES BROWN: Okay. Interesting.

MILTON OLIVER: Some people go to church on Sunday.

JAMES BROWN: And you still have dinner on the ground?

MILTON OLIVER: Dinner on the ground. You know, I showed you the picture of it.
You have got your picture of dinner on the ground [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: If you show that picture around, you are going to have a few more
folks [laughter].

MILTON OLIVER: She does not want to talk because you might get her voice on that [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: You do not like to hear your voice on tape recorder? Well, what
time does it start on Saturday?

MILTON OLIVER: 9:30

JAMES BROWN: Who would be chairman of it?

MILTON OLIVER: B.W. Ashley, I believe it is.

JAMES BROWN: Does it rotate every year?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, we will have an election, I guess, about after the first
recess somewhere along there.

JAMES BROWN: What kind of officers do you have to, I mean, who chooses who sings
when or how do you do that?

MILTON OLIVER: We will have an arranging committee.

JAMES BROWN: Arranging committee?

MILTON OLIVER: An arranging committee. And where is that right there? Just a
minute and I will, I think I can find it. . . There it is.

JAMES BROWN: So it tells you who the committee is on the minutes?

MILTON OLIVER: We will have an arranging committee.

JAMES BROWN: Alright, here last year, class was called to order by Milton Oliver
leading song on page forty. You did not do your 224?

MILTON OLIVER: No, I--

JAMES BROWN: You saved it for later?

MILTON OLIVER: I have a few others, you know [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Okay. Well it starts out, “90th session of Lookout Mountain
Sacred Harp Singing Convention was called to order by S. T. Reeve, leading a
song on page” so and so. “Harvey Austin led morning prayer, Milton Oliver
led song on page thirty-two.” Oh, that is after recess, and you, you sang the
first one. So you got to do more than one song then?

MILTON OLIVER: I guess I did. Usually, you are trying to get them in the house
and get them situated. When--

JAMES BROWN: First one after the recess

MILTON OLIVER: --the worship leader, that is not really counted [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Well, who decides who is going to sing when? I have been to these
singings, and somebody in the back seems like they know everybody there, and
they will say so and so will lead and will be followed by so and so. Who does it?

MILTON OLIVER: It should be there. Somewhere or another. It, where, where, where
did we have the election? Does it tell?

JAMES BROWN: It does not tell, I do not think. It starts out singing.

MILTON OLIVER: Election of officers.

JAMES BROWN: Oh I see.

MILTON OLIVER: Chairman B.W. Ashley and Vice Chairman so and so, Secretary
Randal Smith,

JAMES BROWN: Oh okay.

MILTON OLIVER: Arranging Committee Milton Oliver and Bulldog.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: And he mostly had that, because I have had that for years and
years, and I just resigned from that.

JAMES BROWN: Okay.

MILTON OLIVER: And--

JAMES BROWN: But after you have the first song sung, and you have a recess, then
you come back and have elections usually?

MILTON OLIVER: Usually--

JAMES BROWN: And you will do the same thing this year?

MILTON OLIVER: Probably will again this time, unless somebody gets up and makes
a move that we keep the same officers we have, and somebody seconds it. Somebody
says, well “all in favor,” “aye,” and “all opposed,” “no,” go on again.

JAMES BROWN: What happens if somebody wants to sing a song that has already been
sung? Is that a problem?

MILTON OLIVER: Sing it again, as far as I am concerned [laughter]. Oh, they will
tell you if--

JAMES BROWN: It has already been sung?

MILTON OLIVER: It has already been sung if you are late getting there. They will
tell you, “It has been used.” And some hard hearing, like me, they would
probably go on and try to sing it anyway [laughter].

STUDENT: When did your daughter start singing? Did she lead pretty early?

MILTON OLIVER: Well it, well she, she was singing since two years old I guess,
two, three years old, or getting up there. I do not know how well she was doing,
but she was getting up there.

JAMES BROWN: At age, at age two?

MILTON OLIVER: Two or three years old, something like that.

JAMES BROWN: And she could direct?

MILTON OLIVER: I guess, maybe better than I could [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Anybody have any questions?

STUDENT: I have one. When all these people come for a sing, does everybody sing
all day long, or do some leave and some go and new ones come in, or does the
same bunch sing all day?

MILTON OLIVER: Mostly the same bunch all day long.

STUDENT: Really?

MILTON OLIVER: But some leave and some come in after lunch. We just have them
coming and going all day long sometimes.

JAMES BROWN: And some will just come to listen, will they not? And sit in the
back pews?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, not many people come to listen. It is, they call it a
singer's singing. The singers sing to one another, if that means anything. I do
not know whether that makes good sense or not [laughter].

STUDENT: Now days, are they still teaching and singing, the shapes--?

JAMES BROWN: Well they have a singing school, but they still teach the shapes do
they not?

MILTON OLIVER: Oh yeah.

JAMES BROWN: Just like they did 150 years ago.

STUDENT: Do they have a lot of young people that are doing it?

MILTON OLIVER: No, they do not. And mostly might be a few younger than I am, and
then some older.

STUDENT: No children?

PAULINE OLIVER: In some places.

MILTON OLIVER: Some places they have, they have some children, yeah. Like
Wootens’s at Antioch, they have quite a few young people up there.

JAMES BROWN: Their whole family does it, and they came down to Hoover Library
last year and sang as a family. You may have seen that or for those in
Birmingham. But they were some really good-

MILTON OLIVER: Was you there? I was there.

JAMES BROWN: You were? Me too. There were some young people in that family, very young.

MILTON OLIVER: Oh yeah, sure.

JAMES BROWN: Younger people, anyway. . . Anybody have any other questions that
Mr. or Mrs.?

STUDENT: Could you sing a verse there? I know it would not sound--

JAMES BROWN: Would you sing a verse, would you sing a part of a song just by
yourself? I know it is not the same thing.

MILTON OLIVER: Would it be alright if I sung bass?

STUDENT: Sure.

MILTON OLIVER: I do not sing that high part.

STUDENT: I understand, just your part.

MILTON OLIVER: I, I, I cannot go without the book. I guess it is like a walking
stick. I have to have it. Just, I am going to pick one, say on thirty-two. It is
a half-page song. You know how, how we do, when we, I do not have to do that,
but to key it, you know.

JAMES BROWN: “Fa la so.”  I cannot do it. I will sing it with you.

MILTON OLIVER: “Fa la so. Fa la so.” I am off key bad [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Well do not blame it on me [unclear].

STUDENTS: We do not know it!

MILTON OLIVER: “Fa la so so so la so fa fa la so la so la so fa so fa fa so fa
la so fa so fa la fa fa fa so fa.” [Applause]. Do you want the words or do you
want the notes?

JAMES BROWN: That is good. We went through, we tried to go through them with the
shapes back up home, and you would have gotten a kick out of us [laughter]
trying to do it.

MILTON OLIVER: Well

JAMES BROWN: They, they wanted to see how the shapes worked.

STUDENT: [unclear]

JAMES BROWN: This is a pro [laughter]. I do not know if I can do the melody or
not. I sing bass, too.

MILTON OLIVER: You know what

STUDENT: Do you sing? Do you sing? [background talking]

MILTON OLIVER: I have heard people who are a lot more into this than I have ever been.

JAMES BROWN: I cannot do the-

MILTON OLIVER: Really thick book.

JAMES BROWN: “Wondrous Love” is still on 159?

MILTON OLIVER: Alright, 159.

JAMES BROWN: Maybe I can do the melody on that. Do you, Mrs. Oliver, do you sing
this, too?

MILTON OLIVER: Yes, she does.

JAMES BROWN: She is [unclear]. Well let me. What part does she sing? Will she sing?

MILTON OLIVER: I do not know [unclear].

JAMES BROWN: Can we talk her into it?

MILTON OLIVER: I do not know.

JAMES BROWN: You have your “Wondrous Love?” They have a Xerox copy of
“Wondrous Love.”

MILTON OLIVER: Alright, well everybody have one? Well I have got one, I think it
is on 159 in this book.

JAMES BROWN: And if you can get your wife singing alto, then we will get three
out of four parts.

MILTON OLIVER: Yeah, it is the same thing in here, “Wondrous Love.”

JAMES BROWN: Alright. Well, you, you start us off and, and lead us and see if we
can follow. You all remember the shapes now [laughter]. Triangle, triangle is a
fa, and a circle is a so, and a square is a la, and a diamond is a mi.

MILTON OLIVER: We, we are singing the melody I mean now?

JAMES BROWN: Well, I-

MILTON OLIVER: Or the notes?

JAMES BROWN: Let us sing the shapes.

MILTON OLIVER: Alright.

JAMES BROWN: And do you want to do the base? We have practiced a little of the
melody. [Background noise]

MILTON OLIVER: She has got to bring out the books that I wore out. You see how
many I have worn out?

JAMES BROWN: Yes, you have been through almost every edition, have you not?

MILTON OLIVER: Every edition.

JAMES BROWN: Mrs. Oliver, can we talk you into doing the alto? We will make a
stab at the melody.

PAULINE OLIVER: [laughter] Let the kids play the melody [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Well they are going to, but we need a little alto in it. It is in 159.

ALL: La la so mi so la so mi la la so mi la so fa la so la so mi la so la so la
so la la so so so so mi la la la so mi la so mi la la so mi la so fa la so la so
mi la. What wondrous love is this, oh my soul, oh my soul. What wondrous love is
this that caused the Lord of bliss to bear the dreadful curse for my soul, for
my soul, to bear the dreadful curse for my soul. [Applause].

MILTON OLIVER: I have got a question. This last verse, the fourth verse down
here, and the chorus, says, and says “throughout.” I did not want that. Well
some songs say "through eternity, I’ll sing on," and say "throughout eternity,
I’ll sing on." What about that? Some do not go along that in Sacred Harp.

JAMES BROWN: Is that right? I am surprised.

MILTON OLIVER: They do not. They say there is “no through eternity” to it.

JAMES BROWN: It is just eternity?

MILTON OLIVER: Would not be eternity. Why, that is like going through the house
here on the out, other side. Now that is, course, “through,” in that
unabridged dictionary yonder, about that high and about that wide, little bitty,
but, now if it is just “throughout,” I cannot handle that. I do not know. I
just do not know it. But “through,” like birds, are hatched in the air. They
fly through the air, and live in the air until they die, and never out of it.
But eternity is a greater, larger thing than the, the atmosphere around the Earth.

JAMES BROWN: Well, these people that have a problem with those words, they just
quit singing right here?

MILTON OLIVER: They sing "in eternity, I’ll live on."

JAMES BROWN: No matter what everybody else is singing, they-?

MILTON OLIVER: Yeah. [unclear] Nobody can tell it anyway [laughter]. You cannot
tell it anyway. But I, mean I am asking that for, for my own good now. I, I, I
am not putting out no. . .

JAMES BROWN: You are not making a riddle out of it, are you?

MILTON OLIVER: No, I, I, I am not trying to stir up any confusion about it. I am
just wondering what about it. Well, I will tell you a little instance I had over
at the church, New Bethel. It was a different song than this, but it had
“through eternity” in there, "I’ll Live On." And I pushed for a song that
had it, and I picked that one out in the church book. And when I started back to
sit down, why the preacher said there is no “through eternity” to it.
Another fellow said no “through eternity.” Well, I felt [unclear]. But I
never did sing that song anymore [laughter]. And I got. . .

[Tape runs out]

JAMES BROWN: Make some noise, otherwise, you sit there for ten minutes and you
get the best story of the day when the, when the machine is off [laughter]. Sorry.

MILTON OLIVER: I was just throwing that in for good measure. Now I, I that is
what I run in to, you know. You know, you have a lot of ups and downs in this
world, and . . .

JAMES BROWN: But, the brotherhood and the sisterhood that I have seen at these
singings is a, it is a better communion than I have at my church, I think, or
that I see in most places.

MILTON OLIVER: Well, I have heard that mentioned before. Do not know if you know
the man, Mr. Lonny Rodgers, over in Ephesus, Georgia.

JAMES BROWN: No.

MILTON OLIVER: And he will get up, and he will talk, maybe. And he says, “I do
not know of any group of people that loves one another any better than Sacred
Harp singers." Now I have heard him say that. About the same words that I said,
and I do not know if that would be true or not.

JAMES BROWN: Sounds like it depends on what song you pick [laughter].

[UNCLEAR SPEAKER]: Have you all heard about singing the preacher down?

JAMES BROWN: Singing the preacher down. Have you ever heard of that? Singing the
preacher down? If you have a preacher who is wound up, and it is time to go,
somebody in the back will start the song and the song rises? You know [unclear].
Have you ever heard of that? Singing the preacher down?

MILTON OLIVER: Well, I can tell you something happened not too long ago which is
not hardly like that, but they called a man to direct the song, and he got up
there, and he wanted to talk. He wanted to talk. I have heard him time and
again, to get on the floor, and he has about the same speech every time.

JAMES BROWN: You have all heard it?

MILTON OLIVER: All have heard it. I, I wanted to tell you who did it, Terry
Wooten. He started off singing before the men got through [laughter].

[Unclear female speaker]

MILTON OLIVER: Beg your pardon?

JAMES BROWN: Everybody else joined in?

MILTON OLIVER: Yes [laughter].

MILTON OLIVER: I should not have said that. I called his name, I should not have
done that [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: He would have probably owned up to it [laughter].

MILTON OLIVER: Maybe, he, he thought he was through, I guess [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Mr. Oliver, we are out of time, and I- it grieves me. I would love
to, maybe not you, you are probably glad to get rid of us.

MILTON OLIVER: No, I am enjoying it. I am front and center! Now I am enjoying it [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: If I am going to get these people back for their supper time, I
have got to let them take a break now. But, is there one last question from the
group? A burning, burning question that had not been answered here? Okay.

STUDENT: Can you go all over in, into churches and sing? I mean, I mean--

JAMES BROWN: Every Sunday

STUDENT: -go out of state?

JAMES BROWN: Do you go to Georgia to singings?

MILTON OLIVER: Yes

JAMES BROWN: Do you go to Mississippi any, or?

MILTON OLIVER: Never have been to one in Mississippi. I have been to Alabama and
Florida, and Georgia, and Texas.

JAMES BROWN: But you can find one every Sunday?

MILTON OLIVER: Just about, somewhere in that.

JAMES BROWN: In the Minutes book.

STUDENT: Are you invited, or do you, do you have a year or years where you make
up a schedule, or what?

MILTON OLIVER: Oh no. Well, I just, like a, like a big mule, just go ahead
anyway [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Well now, do you have to, like, like this Lookout Mountain
Convention, do you have to kind of advertise it, and talk it up as you go to
other singings, get up and announce it?

MILTON OLIVER: Like, if I, if I go to one tomorrow, I, if I am the only one from
this community, I will get up and announce it.

JAMES BROWN: Announce the Convention?

MILTON OLIVER: Announce the Convention.

JAMES BROWN: You all be sure and come to-

MILTON OLIVER: Yes, you have a special invitation, just like all of you all have.

JAMES BROWN: Now when you, when you go to a singing, you, you feel free just to
go up and get dinner on the grounds when they have it there?

MILTON OLIVER: Oh yeah, they, they give you a special invitation, come, just get it.

JAMES BROWN: Okay, because when everybody comes to your singing that you are
going to take care of the dinner on the ground.

MILTON OLIVER: More than welcome.

JAMES BROWN: Let me ask you this. This is something that has bothered me all the
time. Now I am from Birmingham, and none of my churches do this, except
sometimes the singing they have at Samford. But I go out to these singings, and
they say, “Come have dinner on the grounds,” and I go. And the next Sunday I
go, you know, and “Come have dinner on the grounds,” and I am never paying
anybody back.

MILTON OLIVER: Well, that is alright.

JAMES BROWN: I felt bad about that.

STUDENT: Take a bowl of potatoes--

JAMES BROWN: Well I have taken, I have taken some things before. It is not up to
the quality that is on the table [laughter].

MILTON OLIVER: I would not, I would not worry about that.

JAMES BROWN: Well good, I am glad to hear that [laughter]. That solved, that
solves a major problem.

MILTON OLIVER: The main thing is, be there.

JAMES BROWN: I have never seen them run short of food at any of these.

MILTON OLIVER: We, as far as I know, we never have over here. We had a table one
time with hardwire cloth. We would roll it up and had two, two by fours at the
end with the bolts in there that would clamp. And they would be tied to a tree
at this end, or a post down there. I have seen the hard wire break one time at lunch.

JAMES BROWN: The wire, the wire break?

MILTON OLIVER: The wire break, or something about it broke. And Hugh McGraw was
there. And he got up and said, “I am going to give a twenty dollar donation if
you all want to build a. . .”

JAMES BROWN: A real table?

MILTON OLIVER: A real table [laughter]. And we have a sign over there on the end
of the table, “The Hugh McGraw Table” [laughter].

JAMES BROWN: Mr. Oliver, thank you for your time. We thoroughly enjoyed it.

MILTON OLIVER: Well, you are more than welcome.

JAMES BROWN: Round of applause. [Applause].

MILTON OLIVER: You all can come back as many times as you all want to.

Audio Information
Attribute	Value
Date	1994-05-20
Interviewer	James Brown
Interviewee	Milton Oliver
Repository	Samford University Oral History Collection
Accession	SUHist/Folklore/003